The Church of Christ Sadist (2) 73

Another sadistic Christian sect (see our post immediately below, The Church of Christ Sadist) lets children die in agony. It calls itself the Church of Christ Scientist (an oxymoron).

No date is given for the report we quote from here. These horrors were allowed to happen decades ago. Has legal action stopped them from ever happening again?

Authorities in four states are prosecuting Chris­tian Science parents on manslaughter, murder, or child abuse charges for refusing medical care to their dying chil­dren.

The cases — six of them in all, including three in California — represent the largest assault in history against Christian Science reliance on prayer instead of medical treatment to cure dis­ease

Christian Science began in 1875 with the publication of Mary Baker Eddy’s Science and Health. About the same time the organization of “Chris­tian Scientists,” an association of Mrs. Eddy’s students, formed to learn the finer points of her mind cure techniques. In 1879 the organization incorporated under its official name — The Church of Christ, Scientist.

Although 44 states have enacted laws to prevent prose­cution of Christian Scientists on the basis of religious beliefs, a growing number of prosecutors are going after parents on the basis of child abuse statutes. Child abuse is not directly allud­ed to in most of the statutes pro­tecting Christian Scientists.

The Massachusetts law pro­tecting Christian Scientists passed by the state legislature in 1971 is similar to that of other states. Prosecutors argue that although it shields parents from charges of child neglect, it does not deal with child abuse.

A child is not deemed to have been abused if prevented by parents from being medically treated:

It reads:A child shall not be deemed to be neglected or lack proper physical care for the sole reason that he is being provided remedial treatment by spiritual means alone.”

These cases are cited:

Robin Twitchell, 2, died on April 3, 1986, after suffering for five days from a congenital bowel obstruction. [Painful beyond description – JB]

Mr. Twitchell said he blamed him­self for his son’s death, not for failing to seek a doctor, but because he “failed” in his “belief”. He said he prayed over his baby every night. …

William and Christine Her­manson of Sarasota, Florida, are accused of killing their dia­betic daughter [Amy, 7] by denying her insulin injections. …

The door for the above and other cases to be prosecuted was opened by a recent ruling by the California Supreme Court involving … three active cases in its jurisdiction. The same ruling also opened the door for potential legal action generally against religious groups accused of child abuse. That recent ruling stated that Christian Science parents who attempt spiritual healing and fail to the loss of life can be tried for manslaughter. In all three cases the children involved died of the same ailment — bacterial meningitis; and the parents were all charged with felony child endangerment and invol­untary manslaughter. [All too voluntary in reality – JB.]

The parents charged includ­ed Laurie Walker of Sacramen­to, whose four-year-old daugh­ter Shauntay died in March 1984; Elliot and Lisa Glaser of Santa Monica, whose 16-month son Seth died in March 1984; and Mark and Susan Rippberger of Santa Rosa, whose 8-year-old daughter Natalie died in December 1964.

The most recent case to be publicized is perhaps the most gruesome. Elizabeth Ashley King died of bone cancer near Phoenix, Arizona, on June 5, 1988. At the time of her death, the 12-year-old girl, who had been out of school for seven months, had a 42-inch-round tumor on her leg that had eaten through her bones and genital area.

Elizabeth’s parents, John and Katherine King, were charged with child abuse for let­ting her die. Prosecutor K. C. Scull said he recommended that manslaughter charges also be filed against the Kings, but the county Grand Jury would not go along with it after hear­ing tearful testimony from them.

How mysterious that the merciful God, for all the praying, did not save the children.

Any explanations?

  • George

    Hi Don . I couldn’t respond to you in the original posting window because the web page setup won’t allow it. I have Windows 7 also and in my opinion it’s a piece of $#@%. I can’t even directly send a photo or article directly via e-mail unless I go through & log onto the computer based system that my laptop was loaded with upon purchase without doing a cut & paste in order to send the photo or article as a direct e-mail. I had no problem with my old Windows XP. My next computer will have Vista and a bunch of CAD design software loaded inside , etc.
    My son is a computer engineer and an electronics technician ( super techno geek ) but he lives far away. I’ll check out the part regarding David Horowitz even tthough I am not a fan of his because he has published SOME material that is not true and is biased propaganda although some material he publishes is right on the mark. I see it on both sides. There is a bias on both sides and I admit it.
    Oh by the way Don , I decided instead of going to a picnic, I’m going to a strip club and check out some T&A and if the Bible Thumpers don’t like , I say f### em . I would rather look at georgeous hot chicks dancing on a stage in a skimpy bikini or au naturale instead of going to a boxing match where two stupid fool grown men bash each other’s brains out in barbaric violence with their fists until one is rendered unconscious. And yet the latter is considered in this society to be wholesome moral family American values. Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease ! No Don , I’m not a dirty old man ——–I’m just an over the hill sexy citizen (SMILE ! ) . Semper Fi !!!!

    • George

      Hi again Don. I’m replying as a continuation of former post.

      Just kidding Don on the club although I wouldn’t see any harm but my girlfriend would skin me alive and I would end up like John Bobbitt. Ha ha ha ha !! Actually I’m taking my girlriend out to Red Lobster and check out a big lobster and shrimp seafood dinner ( I really miss the Alaskan King Crab ) where I use to eat at. My very close friend ( a Christian ) and I use to go regularly and take turns treating each other at this great seafood restaurant. He later died of prostate cancer and my life hasn’t been the same since. He was a staunch Christian and I being a staunch Atheist and yet we both ignored all that and got along perfectly. He being white and me being black made NO difference whatsoever .
      It’s amazing Don how we as a human race can build the most sophisticated things of technology and an advanced societal infrastructure yet human beings still in this era of the space age can’t seem to get along and live in harmony. It’s mind boggling man !

  • George

    Looks like this thread has been the longest running topic/thread so far. Not to get off topic here but have you been keeping up with the riots in Afghanistan regarding a Florida Christian pastor burning Qurans ? Amazing that these Muslims are so offended by this but they all were totally silent and many even cheered on Sept. 11, 2001 when their zealot radical cohorts hijacked four jetliners and killed around 3,000 people. No outrage there. These people are barbarians and savages. They murdered and beheaded innocent people who had nothing to do with their so-called outrage. Where is their outrage for all the mass multitude of terrorist attacks ? Where ? Show me. Let me stop right here before I post something that will get me censored . It makes my blood boil ! Semper Fi !

    • I’m Navy jarhead….

      Muslims/christians; protestants/catholics….they are going to get us all killed. Not because of anything anyone has actually done, but because of what you believe…gas ’em all…anything that believes there is a higher power…uhoh…I sound like them…what to do…what a cruel world! Per last posting…off to a picnic!

      • George

        If people want to believe in superttition let them go ahead—just leave me alone and don’t push it on me or others. I won’t be going on a “picnic” because I know the origin of that term. Instead I’ll go have Corona or a Chivas Regal !!!!!

      • George

        Hi Don , I just came back from a PICNIC family reunion with my son and other family members. I dug up more research on the term “picnic” and I was both right and wrong and please allow me to correct my mistake and error.
        The origin of the word “‘picnic” is French ( piquenique ) . Acording to my further research , the word was invented long before the attrocities towards blacks took place in America. The French word- “picquenique” signifies an outing with food– similar to the words meaning in English.
        However during era in America especially in the year 1919 the word became popular as a slang term referring to the weeklend events of ” the burning of a black man at the stake or bon fire ” or a slang term meaning — ” pick a n****r ” for lynching which became a common weekly event . The term originated in France long before the lynchings of blacks and was later picked up by racists whites in the southern USA as a slang term to refer to lynchings of blacks. Black nationalists distorted and subverted this term and posted intentional misleading info on the internet.
        The original source of information that I received NEVER explained the origin of the word and I believe it was probably done intentionally to promote an Afro-centrist agenda without stating the source. Now that I have done further research I will be going on more and more picnics . Oh by the way Don , when you’re ready to go on another picnic I’d like to join you and I’ll bring the fried chicken and potato salad if you promise to bring the hot sauce and beer. Deal ? Semper Fi !!!!!!!!

        • George…Would you believe your response only just came thru on my win 7 live mail!

          Hey, I’d enjoy a picnic with you!

          I have the mindimage that “legend” was a construction of some racist black professor of black studies in some ivy league university. David Horowitz has a great book out about the liberal/progressive takeover of our indoctrinati…oh, I mean educational system.

          I can see why talkinghead theists go off on atheists when so many irrational a_holes claim atheism. I’ve always thought of my atheism as being considered. LOL…it amazes me the socialists deny god…they and religion are both “collective”. Then again, Hitler and Stalin were at each other not because of idealogy…they were both socialists/collectivists…they went after each other because they wanted the same audience!

          Hope you’ve been well!

      • George

        Sorry I couldn’t respond to your post of one hour ago Don. And you’re absolutely right about these black racist a**holes ( and I’m black myself as most people on this discussion forum already know ) . I get so fired up when I hear these self-righteous , self-appointed , race-baiting , race card playing, race huistling , phony poverty pimps always turning a situation into a racial issue when it isn’t about race at all but personal responsibility and accountability. When you speak this way Don , they will call you a racist or a bigot , and when I speak this way , I am called a race traitor and an Uncle Tom or accused of ” acting white ” . I’m sure you know exactly what I mean. We still have people in our society who can’t think for themselves and only jump on the popular bandwagon and engage in “group think ” or have an “entitlement mentality “. Since I don’t fit the stereotypical mold, I’m considered an outcast and I become the lone wolf and “branded ” with a negative stigma. It’s lonesome out here when you speak up and take a stand Don. Now I understand why people in general just chose to remain quite. Sometimes I don’t blame them . Keep that beer cold— I’ll catch you later guy !!!!!!!

  • George

    I just got through reading the letter to the editor in USA TODAY Weekend edition ( April 1-3, 2011 ) titled–” ” Fight for the cross” whereby the Christian letter writer states — ” Let us fight to keep our religious signs and symbols from the atheistic clutches of Big Brother in this Orwellian age” . I wonder how many letters in rebuttal if any will be sent by atheists in response. They printed one of my letters in the past on a different topic but since then I haven’t been able to get another in for some reason.

    • This is a duplicate…It is posted using the reply button from your post now at the top of the page…if you follow the thinking here.

      George…being a newbie here:

      why do some replies have reply buttons and some don’t?
      what is all this unregistered stuff and what does one do to register? and why would you?

      But, my new friend…at least great new acquaintance (LOL)…geez…you must truly like pain:black, white wife, cop, atheist and interactor with theists…LOL!

      I’m only atheist and Polish! not so bad. LOL. Oh, I push economics…almost as bad as atheism!

      Oh, sorry if I caused Rocky to leave…

      Just got your post about a paper your looking for and the voting dilema:

      The Ron and Rand Paul phenoma is the hope I am looking at. Now Ron is a flaming pacifist…Rand and his father argue on these points. Both however are Austrian economic thinkers and it has been their presentations of policy which resonate so favorably. Austrian economics is totally logical and comprhensible. The gov’t econ is insanity…on purpose.

      I went to a local Tea Party event and met an AZ liberterian candidate, before Nov elections, what a horrid representative of the party.

      Oh yeah…the Fn’ christ jerks have totally gotten their grip on repubs. So far, however, the Tea Party (nationals) have managed to limit the push to the basicc core of limited government, lower taxes and restoration of the constitution. The latter, however, gets too much “creator crap”. If Jefferson were alive today, he and Adams and other founders would be atheists…they were into natural law…a natural “deity” and reason and rationality were considered higher principles than mysticism.

      Later

    • Enough of this for a Sunday…I’m heading out for a picnic. I’m in AZ and the snow’s melting in the north…heading to the central highlands to sit by a waterfall and drink some great wine, munch on real baked turkey and swiss cheese sandwiches and mess with some christian broad’s mind…and other parts!

      • George

        As per my previous post– I studied history tremendously and learned where the term “picnic” came from ( I was shocked ) and I will NEVER use that term again . I know you only mean it as an outdoor outing (tongue in cheek ) and a get together but I spend every day studying history and current events . Have fun at your get together outing and save a prime rib sandwich for me .

      • George

        My father was in the Navy and I was in the Marines. He said to me one day – ” Don’t you know that the Marines are a department of the Navy ? “. I replied — ” Yes- the MEN’S department “. He never teased me again after that . Ha ha

      • George

        Since it’s Sunday , I’m going to take my girlfriend to our favorite family restaurant and watch all the church people who just got out of church staring at us since we’re an interracial couple as they display their so-called LOVE THY NEIGHBOR and how they voice that we’re all created equal but they certainly don’t show it in their actions. I think many of the posts on this thread should have been posted on ” About us” instead of this thread which is suppose to be on a discussion of the claimed healing power of prayer and “Christian Science”. Perhaps we’ve gotten a little carried away ( SMILE). I’m calling it a day also. I think I’m going to take my girlfriend to the beach and rub tanning oil on her on our beach blanket ( and since we’re an interracial couple ) we’ll piss off all the racist bigots ( both black and white ) as we both get a thrill watching the open mouth and bulging eyes expressions on their faces . It’s funny man —really ! Have fun Don ————————see ya .

  • Conservative atheists…what are we conserving by the way?

    Now, accepting that conservative implies Americans…Do you understand that the concepts the Founders incorporated into the US Constitution have been totally abrogated?

    Here’s just one example of the demise of the Constitution: The pledge of allegiance. Right now a huge controversy goes on about whether or not the pledge of allegiance should or should not include the words under god. It goes without saying what this audience thinks. But, it’s all a diversion.

    The Constitution established a confederation of independent and sovereign states whose authority derived from the true sovereignty of the individual. Government was best closest to the individual and government was the agent of the individual. Incidentally, and fodder for another discussion…thank god Lincoln was shot! that sob did more to destroy this nation…he didn’t free slaves…his iontent was to end staes’ rights.

    Back to the topic…the pledge. Again, the United States was not a single nation but a federation of states…DIVISIBLE!!! Secession, nullification and even expulsion (which we should do with CT) were material to the Constitution. The pledge of allegiange was written in 1893 by one of the first, and extremely radical, progressives.

    The Bellamy boys were so radiccal they were even tossed out of the movement. Anyway, their goal was to establish a stronger central government…they’d be drooling today…and by imposing a pledge which included the word INDIVISIBLE, they have been able to get Americans to ignore any notion of States’ rights…It has worked.

    So when you rise and give the pledge…you are indeed, being anti-constitutional and anti-American…It’s true. There was a salut that went along with the pledge…Hitler borrowed it…yup…became the Nazi salute. It was changed to placing the hand over the heart in 1942.

    Instead of worrying about the inclusion or elimination of the words about god…scrap the whole thing. We might get a discussion going about how the left imposed the pledge and how theists promote it for their own agenda…maybe not…LOL

    • George

      In regards to your last two postings , I’m searching for a couple of paper files which I’m sure you will be interested in. As soon as find it , I’ll post it and I’m sure you’ll agree. Most people in America ( and even worldwide ) don’t bother to do individual and indpendent research beyond the mainstream media. Because of their gullibility and naive mentality , they mentality “eat up ” whatever BIG MEDIA or their cohort peers shoves down their throats. I’m registered as a Libertarian (and very disappointed in the party ) and I have problems even with the Libertarian Party , and yet in the past state election I voted straight Republican ( even though the religious Christians have taken over that party ). It’s in my opinion the lesser of two evils and better than what the socialist whiny Democrat Party left wing liberals are doing . I can find fault in ALL the political parties and as I have stated before , we often find ourselves in a delema and caught between a rock and a hard place. When I find those paper files I’ll post it briefly.

    • George

      Amen brother ! Oooooooops –did I say Amen again ? I meant to say——RIGHT ON DON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Macnvettes

    Check out this story: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/04/01/exp.pn.girlfriend.set.free.hln?hpt=T2

    Because of Christians’ “forgiveness”, there is a woman who pleaded NO CONTEST to 1st degree manslaughter free on the streets with a deferred sentence! I ask you this: do you think they would have been so forgiving if she was an atheist?

    In another similar story, Mike Huckabee went on the record saying that as governor, he commuted sentences of prisoners who claimed that they were “born again”. This is religiously motivated miscarriage of justice that puts the public at large in great danger. In fact, at least one of Huckabee’s early releases committed armed robberies and raped a child during time that he should have been serving behind bars!
    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412737_suspect230.html

    • George

      Now now Macnvettes, be careful putting out factual info like that because YOU will be accused of being an anti-Christian zealot or a secular bigot for not going along with the program. You see , we atheists are “closed minded ” and simply NOT enlightened or open minded like the theologians. You see , if we have a problem with what you just presented this means that you hate religious people and are intolerant toward those who have seen the light. Now Macnvettes , I want you to get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness and repent and if you do I will give you two free tickets to sit in the audience of the 700 Club. And while you’re at it pray for all the narrow minded heathens and infidels who just don’t understand and have no spiritual awakening. Now don’t you feel bad for posting that factual but irritating article on here ? I do forgive you Macnvettes and now let us pray ———————–Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!!

      • Macnvettes

        I’ve got another story that will piss more people off. I recently got a new job through a recruiter. I then went out and had a few drinks with the recruiter and he started telling me about the frustrating aspects of his job, like the fact that affirmative action is really about quotas, despite what the Dems will tell you. He claims that large companies (he mentioned Kraft foods) call his office with positions and they tell him to only send them “diversity candidates” to consider. He told me he actually had an HR manager give a candidate instructions on how to beat a drug screening because the candidate was black and they didn’t have any other black candidates! He is a food industry recruiter, so this means that our food industry is being run at the floor level by people who are druggies with the full knowledge of the employers just so that they can get enough “diversity candidates” to win an award and keep the government off their backs! Don’t get me wrong, I am completely for equal opportunity, however, I am vehemently opposed to “affirmative action”, I believe that employment should be based upon qualifications and salary negotiation and that race should not be a question allowed on any forms that are not medically related!

        • George

          You are absolutely correct Macnvettes and as a black man myself I get into so many heated arguments with fellow blacks on this subject of “affirmative action” . My girlfriend who is white also agrees with me ( especially from the gender perspective ).
          When I was 18 years of age I voluntarily signed up and joined the Marines . I had former Army ROTC training at age 17 and when I joined the Marines during the Vietnam era , I made the highest score on the written exam and when I went to boot camp at Parris island, SC , I was in the top three academic scorers on the written exams there. I qualified for my position as platoon leader and I was the former group leader.
          Affirmative action is an insult to ethnic minorities and women and it is also a form of reverse-discrimination upon white males. Unfortunately in our “politically correct—-aka politically corrupt charged society , there is a widespread entitlement mentality that permeates our society today.
          Whenever I speak out on this subject to fellow blacks from this perspective, I am called “Uncle Tom” , acting-white , race traitor, sellout , flunkie for the white man , brainwashed puppet for whitey and all that bullcrap. I have had personal friends ostracize me and relatives socially disown me for my conservative stance ( as if it isn’t bad enough in our society being an atheist ).
          I have been in such deep depression in the past that I totally withdrew from socializing with many people because of the ridicule and harrassment I have endured. I could tell you horror stories but I won’t bore you with such. You have no idea.
          Furthermore affirmation is a bigoted position and suggests that the ethnic minority or woman can’t make it on his/her own and needs the “crutch” of government or special priviledges in order to get ahead instead of studying hard, working hard, and making every effort to persevere in order to compete in our competive society.
          Affirmative action suggests that ethnic minorities and women can’t make it on their own accord and are too inept to achieve by their own abilities and therefore it is an insult not only to the ethnic minority and women but also an affront to the white male that has been “punished” or discriminated against just because he is white. This social position which has been promulgated by leftist liberals does NOT help the people but rather hinders and “traps” the ethnic minority and/or woman , because it makes them believe that they have a right to be put ahead of the pack just because of who they are.
          Of course liberals are still living in the past and many blacks in America still live in the 1950’s and 1960’s. I grew up in the south during the 1950’s and 1960’s when we had actual lawful racial “Jim Crow” segregation. I use to watch large parades of the KKK marching down the street and burn tall crosses and terrorize the communities. I use to sit on the back of the bus, drink at separate water coolers , eat at separate lunch counters, and I have been called the N-word so many times I thought it was my nickname.
          Oh , by the way I’m sure you know that last reply I made to you was in joking humor——-ha ha ha ha !!!. I went to a “government grant” seminar and during the entire seminar , the lecturer went on and on about how ethnic minorities and women have such a tremendous chance of getting a government grants and foundation grants. One white male sitting in front of me shouted out —– ” I guess that rules me out and my chances ! ” Liberals call themselves trying to right past wrongs but two wrongs don’t make a right and liberals should be focusing on encouraging the the ethnic minority and women to do the things that the majority group are doing and strive and to persevere extra hard and show the world by their achievements that they ( or rather we ) can make it on our own without the crutch of hand outs, public assistance and government appointed special priviledges.
          This societal arrangement has not improved race relations but has caused a further divide and anger & resentment. The sad part is that the overwhelming great majority of the news media and government representatives are part of the PC crowd and have their own dubious agenda to promote and they will say and do anything to promote such an agenda. They don’t really care about the people they proclaim to help but are only using ethnic minorities and women to promote their agenda. We therefore become their “useful idiots” and their “tools” or “pawns” to spread political correctness which has done more harm than good.

        • George

          Check out my post I made a few minutes ago. Also, do you remember the pastor in Florida who talked about burning the Quran ? Well a bunch of Muslims in the Middle East got offended and burst into an embassy or the like and killed over a dozen people because they were OFFENDED . The same thing happend previously when a Danish newspaper published a cartoon with a photo of Muhammad with the image of a bomb as his head with an extended fuse that supposedly symbolized Muslim violence. So how did the Muslims respond to show that they are NOT violent ? They started a riot and murdered over a hundred innocent people in public. Instead of having a peaceful protest or demonstration and peacefully voicing their dislike of the cartoon , they respond with mass murder and mahem. This is your religion of peace ! Unbelievable !

        • Anonymous

          @George :
          Remember the pastor in Florida? I just today moved out of Gainesville for my new job.I’ve actually seen Terry Jones in the flesh! I actually sent him an email through his church website praising him for exercising his 1st amendment rights and suggesting that he burn a koran at every sermon. I then chastised him for his positions on other things like homosexual marriage and called him a hypocrite because everything that he accuses islam of being is also true of the christian faith. I told him I might stop by fit the next koran burning and bring a few bibles as well. I haven’t gotten a response yet, lol.

        • Anonymous

          @George :
          Remember the pastor in Florida? I just today moved out of Gainesville for my new job.I’ve actually seen Terry Jones in the flesh! I actually sent him an email through his church website praising him for exercising his 1st amendment rights and suggesting that he burn a koran at every sermon. I then chastised him for his positions on other things like homosexual marriage and called him a hypocrite because everything that he accuses islam of being is also true of the christian faith. I told him I might stop by fit the next koran burning and bring a few bibles as well. I haven’t gotten a response yet, lol.

      • Macnvettes

        @George:

        Replying to affirmative action. Did you see Stossel’s latest fox report that he did on “freeloaders”? He did a 6-minute clip on the impact of government welfare on those who get the most of it: American Indians. They get free education, land, healthcare, congressional representation, etc. However, they remain to-date the poorest race of people in America despite the handouts that they are given. An examination revealed that the Indian reservations are run like a commune with no true property rights, and the leaders usurp all of the cash from the rest of the tribe. They also profiled one tribe that refuses government handouts, and surprisingly, they are successful! There was a recent story in Dayton, OH where not enough minorities were passing a police competency exam, so they lowered the passing grade to less than 60%!!!!! The local NAACP came out against this policy saying that it puts the public in danger (I agree), but the national NAACP supports the policy, along with our great DOJ! Of course this story didn’t get much play (if any) in the MSM, only Fox and the blogs have it.
        http://lonelyconservative.com/2011/03/obama-admin-makes-dayton-oh-police-department-lower-standards-to-accommodate-minorities/

        • George

          As a black man , I can tell you (IMHO) that the NAACP , Black Congressional Caucus and other like groups are a farce. I get so ticked off by the self-righteous , self-appointed, phony, race-baiting , race-hustling, ignorant, exploitative, poverty pimp so-called black leaders. These bafoons aren’t my leader. As far as I’m concerned (IMHO) they are all a bunch of a**holes ! They really piss me the #@%$ off ! These New Age so-called black leaders (IMHO) are nothing but black racists posing as people simply out to help blacks ,etc. What a farce ! Louise Farrakhan is no more MY leader than David Duke is YOURS. You see Macnvettes, it’s the left-wing liberal news media that puts these guys in the spotlight and has our national society believing that they are the spokesmen for us ethnic minorities. Oh pleeeeeeeeeease ! Spare me ! Nothing can be further from the truth. Also (IMHO) they have done more harm than good and have caused more racial divisiveness than ever. Also , have you noticed that overwhelmingly the so-called black leaders have for the most part exclusively been clergymen ? Think about it. All are clergymen. For example—— Rev. Jessie Jackson , Rev. Al Sharpton , Rev (Dr.) Martin Luther King, Rev. Joseph Lowrey, Minister Louis Farrakhan, Minister Malcolm X , even Congressman J.C. Watts ( a former youth minister ) and I could go on and on. Where are the rational, logical thinking and secular black figures ? Why isn’t the mainstream media interviewing Norm Allen, Jr. of the former African Americans for Humanism and a host of other black freethinkers ?
          We even have BET ( Black Entertainment Television ). Imagine if someone produced a show called WET ( White Entertainment television ). I’ll bet the show would be flooded with complaints of RACISM RACISM RACISM ad nauseum. It’s crazy man. Blacks rioted when four white cops beat Rodney King but were totally silent and uncaring when four black punk thugs beat Reginal Denny . What’s wrong with this picture. Do you see where I’m coming from Macnvettes ? It’s the double-standard hypocrisy that permeates our society that is ticking people off.
          This entitlement mentality and victim mentality has made our ethnic group lazy instead of productive ; moochers instead of producers, consumers instead of inventors and manufacturers. I could tell you horror stories of how many times I’ve been harrassed, called vile and vulgar names , threatened ,discriminated against, etc. for taking a conservative stance of self reliance and personal responsibility. The average person would be in an insane asylum for having endured what I have ( I’m not joking ). It’s mind boggling. I know exactly what you mean Macnvettes but the mainstream media is vehemently biased and won’t give guys like me the time of day. I went on a local TV show and the woman show host who I knew and I thought I could trust as a friend set me up and one of the TV station staff members confirmed it to me in private and told me that if I told anyone he told me what he had advised me , that he would deny it. That’s how intimidated and scared the people are in our society.
          We are a society of legal FREE SPEECH but when a person exercises such , he/she has to be willing to suffer the consequences because of the PC crowd will publicly engage in ad hominem attacks and character assasination for the purpose of silencing the messenger and hence silencing the message. You are absolutely right sir. I’m a retired cop and I have seen the worst of the worst—you have no idea. I only judge a person by the content of their character and nothing else. You are telling it like it is but the question still remains —who listens ?

        • Macnvettes and George too

          Stossel is great…with a stipulation…he is a libertarian. And, my concern with libertarians is their irrational pacificism ( see Intellectuals and Society by Thomas Sowell… He has a superb analysis of pacifism for pacifism’s sake). That said, he is an Austrian economic thinker. If you all haven’t heard about Austrian economics and Ludwig von Mises…you just have to to be a true American!!!

          George, the money that funds all these jackasses (media, black leaders, democrat & republican progressives, etceteras) is all a function of economics. And, government, for more than 100 years consectutive years has managed to get everybody to, like a Pavlov dog, respond negatively to any mention of the word e c o n o m i c s.

          Other than the present Domestic Enemy in the White house, can you name any politician in the last hundred years that said out loud they were against the constitution and against free market capitalism? Yet not one administration or Congress in that time has ever enacted legislation in support of the constitution or free markety capitalism.

          Indeed, what they enacted as economic policy was socialism: merfcantilism, keynesianism and monetarism. All are predicated on the principle that individuals are incapable of determining what is or isn’t in their best interest and only government can: through experts. Further, Congress relinquished its responsibility and turned the monetary system (our money) over to a criminality-legalized banking system which has systematically stolen America’s wealth: the greatest heist in history.

          Do you guys know what fractional reserve central banking is? Well, it is, by operation not by supporter’s & defender’s BS, the source of political corruption and the generator of socialist program funding…not to mention the financing behind unfounded wars and $trillions of pork.

          Liberty and economy are inextricably linked. You can’t expect freedom and ignore economic policy! There is no liberty or excersice of any rights, inalienable or otherwise, without economic freedom. Hence, central government has purposefully, thru government-funded, politically-influenced compulsory education (indoctrination) miseducated and misdirected the populace…ignore economics.

          OK, I’ll stop, but…worrying (eh, wrong word) whether there is or isn’t a god is for nought if the socialists take over and we are at the tipping point. The stupid theists , like the disappointing Beck, look to faith and prayer to fix it all. I would strongly suggest that the fix is to, as rapidly as possible, educate about economics…turn the light on these SOBs…

          If you’d like to learn more about Austrian economics…let me know. Look if all you know about economics is how you feel…prepare to be poor and ruled!

  • George

    No Rocky , you have NOT answered my question. I certainly don’t see any “feeding frenzy” anwhere unless you are trying to suggest or insinuate such. First of all you continue to talk about god this , god that and god the other . How can you even discuss the subejct of god when you can’t even define what god is ? According to the top three religions ( especially Christians ) god is some invisible , formless, indescribable supernatural entity that mysteriously exists out there in space somewhere ( essentially a Space Ghost ). God is described as a mystery. If god is a mystery that we can’t see, hear,touch,smell,taste, or identify with any of our senses then how do you know such a being exists ? According to the dictionary, the word “mystery” means that which is unknowable or not able to be described or defined . With that being the case, then religionists are lying to the world when they proclaim they know god. Religionists are always talking about getting closer to god. How can a material human get close to an immaterial spirit ? The two are unalike and NO compatible in nature and is an impossibility . When I told a Christian friend of mine that he believed in a pace ghost he acted as if he was offended. I asked him why ? I told him that it is Christians that assert that their supposed deity is a ghost for example — Christians say that they believe in god the father, god the son and god the holy ghost and then they purport that the three are all one. that is mathematically impossible. Three does not go into one. How can a being be himself ( the father ) and then be his own son and also be some invisible ghost. This is the epitome of absurdity.
    Furthermore , Christians always refer to god with the pronoun “he” -for example ” He hears” –” He sees”–” He knows”–” He sees”–” He loves” ad nauseum. The word “he” is apersonal pronoun that denotes the male gender or a boy or a man. If your god deity is invisible and formless as Christians proclaim , then how do you know what gender this invisible being is ? Explain that to me Rocky. You can’t. You’re only quoting what you have been indoctrinated to believe without question or analytical inquiry. Furthermore I thought this thread was supposed to be on the subject of prayer and the supposed healing powers of prayer. Prove to me that your deity exists and don’t use quotations from some book written two thousand years ago which was written in an era of time when the overwhelming majority of people worldwide were extremely superstitious and such a book doesn’t prove anything . A Christian once told me that I can’t prove there is no go. I said –So what ? You can’t prove to me the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist either. So duuuuuhhhhh !!!! Hellllo !!!!
    As I said, if your god is invisible , then how can you tell it’s a man god ? How do you know it’s not a female goddess , or an asexual gender-neutral being ? Your belief is based on a supposition or a –What if ? preface. How do you know that your deity is male ? Becaue it has an invisible penis, or an invisible “adams apple” , or invisible bulging muscles, or an invisible beard or mustache ? How do you decipher identifying the gender of your supposed deity ?
    I could very well assert that invisible purple unicorns exist and then challenge you to prove that they don’t exist using that form of illogic. Scientists have presented evidence that our universe, galaxy and the billions of galaxies , stars, palnets and other planetary bodies are many bilions upon billions of years old and yet Christiany is only 2,000 years old and Islam is around 1400 years old. With that being said , then how could any man existing today without any form of scientific instruments such as telescopes, space probes, etc. know what happened back billions of years ago. Fundamentalist Christians actually believe that our universe is only aroud 6,000 years old. This contradicts the teachings of science.
    My statement as before still stands in that why is it necessary to ask any deity for anything ? How do you know any deity that you suppose exists hears your prayers. An invisible spirit doesn’t have ears (how can it hear prayers ?). An invisible spirit doesn’t have a brain ( how can it feel think, reason or love/hate ? ). This is another theological supposition based on conjecture and not scientific fact.
    Where was your so-called loving god during slavery in , the holocaust in Germany and all the other attrocities ? If there is such a being and this being allowed this to happen ( which of course if he exists he certainly did ) then such a being is NOT worth of praise , worship, or glory. Before you accuse me of hating god , remember it is impossible for an atheist to hate god because atheists do not believ that such a being exists. to accuse an atheist of hating god would be gthe equivalent of an atheist accusing you or any religionist of hating Mother Goose ( and I’m not stating that you are ). Just a thought.
    As far as your sarcasm of –” let the feeding frenzy begin” , that statement sounds rather provocative on your part and leads me to believe (IMHO) that you are on here trolling instead of engaging in discourse or dialogue. Also , why don’t you go onto the religious websites and have them knock off the vulgar name calling and vile “demonizing” which we atheists are subjected to perpetually when we post messages on their sites. Certainly sounds like a double-standard and hypocrisy to me. This is why we atheists as a whole don’t bother posting on religious blogs. It’s like “beating a dead horse” or “pulling teeth” or “talking to a brick wall” . No one on this blog has attacked you but I can tell you horror stories what I and many atheists have been subjected to at the hands of religious zealots.
    It is apparent that you are going to persist on believing that your prayers work because of your theological dogmatic indoctrination and I will maintain my scientific , analytical and logical sense of rational reason just as well. To each his own .

    • Rocky

      Now, George, you’re writing to me again as if I represent the imaginary zealous christian monolith that you keep talking about. I feel like you didn’t even read my last post because nothing you just wrote addresses any of the points I shared. I am interested in having a dialogue with you, and I’m doing my best to write to you and to address your specific questions, yet you reply to me referencing things I have not made any mention of. You assume that my beliefs are identical to those religious zealots that you have fought with in other instances (although I’ve share them with you and they are most certainly not the same), which shows me that while you are eager to criticize Christian Science prayer-based healing (remember that was the original topic of this post), that you actually don’t know anything about it because CS is quite different from mainstream protestant Christianity. Let me give you a little hint: part of dialogue and discourse is taking the time to learn about the perspective of the person/people you are dialoguing with. I am curious about your attitudes and the experiences that inform your beliefs about the universe, but I have not had a moment to ask questions because I’ve been on the defensive ever since I arrived here, and for things that I didn’t even say or allude to. Sure, I can see that you know a lot about christian fundamentalism, but I’m not a christian fundamentalist. So if you do want to have a dialogue (and you claim to want that and to try to do that all the time), then you’re going to have to start talking to the right audience. And so you’re right, no one has attacked me, because no one on this blog has actually engaged me as an individual thinking person, independent of radical christianity. You and everyone else are writing to someone who isn’t here and isn’t writing anything to you, in response to something you wrote to someone else somewhere else in the past. It was already a feeding frenzy before I arrived, and you’re chewing on bones that were stripped clean long ago for the sole purpose of validating your own opinions; which, not coincidentally, is exactly the same thing those religious bloggers who you despise so thoroughly do in their own online communities. I am not part of them, and I’m sorry I interrupted your pity party. The world isn’t going to become a better place if we all just hole up with others who think like us because we want to be left alone with our beliefs and our prejudices.

      You know as well as anyone that using He for God is just the common parlance. But in any case, I don’t believe God has a sex, or cares about what sex I am (that’s female by the way, I’m not a fellow). I think many of the major religious sects make the unfortunate mistake of casting God in the image of humans, where it should be the other way around. Also, I do not believe in the trinity. I do not believe Jesus was God, or that God could ever appear incarnate. To my understanding, Jesus was a human being, just like any of us, and I could really care less whether he was conceived immaculately or not. I am also not a creationist, not do I believe in intelligent design as defined by christian fundamentalists. Hopefully this paragraph and my last post have helped broaden your understanding of the diversity of Christian beliefs that exist in the world.
      And, in response to your clarified question. Why pray to a god? Because there is always a limit to what humans and science can do. There will always be diseases we can’t cure (particularly when pharmaceutical companies are fabricating diseases faster than they are producing medications for them), and disasters we can’t manage. Man is not the end all be all of creation and I think it is arrogant to think that we’ve got this universe figured out and under control. And I do not just want to accept that pain, suffering and destruction are the only option. What a dark outlook on life! But that’s just me.

      • George

        Rocky , here we go again . While you rant with antagonistic remarks about me having a “pity party” , I certainly have not asserted any pity for myself or you but it apparently seems that you are so bent in being one-sided in this discourse and your perpetual use of antagonistic sargasm. True, in order to have a mutual discourse one has to listen to both sides and not only does that apply to me but it equally applies to you as well. No one has made any attack or demonizing upon you whatsoever , but for some reason you seem bent on making your own interpretations as such. I asked you questions that you never answered. The so-called responses that you have made in this last post does not yield a definitive answer as well but an opinionated perception of your outlook on things. To say that man is not the end all to all creation still DOES NOT answer the question. Your using the word ‘creation” assumes that we atheists embrace a creation belief ( which I or atheists in general do not ). This has absolutely NOTHING to do with accepting any pain, suffering and destruction and you are wandering off topic in such assertion. The arrogance is on your part making remarks such as telling me that your post will broaden my understanding but I certainly don’t see you making the concerted effort to broaden YOURS.
        If your engaging in any prayer makes you happy and makes you feel “under control” then –go for it. You certainly will NOT have any opposition from me. I have no zeal but from reading the remarks made by you I do detect ( IMHO ) quite a bit of zeal in your presentation. I only asked you to prove your assertion –that’s all, and as such it seems like you were trying to turn the dialogue into a “pissing contest” or “bickering match” which I adamantly refuse to engage in. I have been that route before and it is NOT my style. You are free sir to express any viewpoint or opinion that you wish but for some reason you misinterpret my asking for you to prove your assertions as some kind of personal attack upon you when such was NEVER the case. I’m sure if you and I were sitting together at a coffeee shop and exchanging ideas in a person to person expression , that the personal perception may be different. We atheists who are conservative welcome all points of view ( even religious ) as far as discussion is concerned but for some reason you seem to believe that only you have a broaden outlook and anyone who doesn’t agree with your point of view is somehow “off base”. I would love to have been able to share ideas , as I only asked you politely SIR to simply prove your assertion and that is all , and I certainly can’t see how that is to be interpreted in the negative. I do wish you the best sir in whatever your endeavor. I have simply repeatedly asked you to prove your assertions or claims —that’s , all but it seems that you are too “thin skinned” and ” overly sensitive” to respond rationally. With that being the case , I’m done with the conversation because I see this going nowhere. Nevertheless I do indeed hope the best for you in whatever your position. With that being said—————–Live long and prosper !

  • George

    This is in response to the last post by Rocky . Rocky I don’t know who called anyone a moron as it certainly wasn’t me. I did in fact state that the term ” Christian Science” is an oxymoron and that term has absolutely NOTHING to do with morons ( which refers to a person’s low IQ ). It simply means that the two terms contradict –that’s all. I made it quite clear that religion and science is NOT compatible and the two DO NOT go together. If you want to persist and interpret it as some kind of attack or such then that is your perception and I have no control of that as it was certainly was not the point I was projecting.
    You say that babies are born with a blank slate , and you quoted me stating that babies are born atheists. Yes they are , and even though babies learn various subjects and characteristics as they develop and grow , the fact still remains that religion specifically is NOT a science but an indoctrinated ideology. There is a big difference. You cannot compare believing in an invisinble supernatural being in the sky that no one has ever proven to exist with that of the law of gravity , or nuclear energy , or electromagnetic levitation or hydrodynamic propulsion. The two are not even in the same ball park and there is still absolutely NO comparison.
    Getting back to the prayer issue. You still didn’t answer my question. If your supposed deity knows all and sees all and has knowledge of our human condition before a person prays , then why doesn’t your supposed loving , caring , beneficent and protective savior deity simply just do the right thing and cure a person instead of making a person beg, plead, and grovel for help or healing ? Furthermore why didn’t your ALMIGHTY DEITY prevent the person from getting the cancer or other illness in the first place ? Why didn’t your deity prevent the birth defect ( such as siamese twins ) in the first place ? Why didn’t your deity intercede or intervene and use all of his almighty might and godly power and protect the person from the injury , defect, suffering and death from the get go ?
    Why does your deity allow some people to live and yet others die even when they committed no offense to deserve such agonizing suffering and death ? That’s certainly NOT being fair and just. I have seen a multitude of people pray vehemently and yet still suffer and die. Their prayers were nothing more than wasted words uttered into thin air. Their prayers obviously fell upon deaf ears. Your god states in your Bible –” Asketh and thou shall receiveth” Well guess what—–These people ASKETH but they were TURN DOWNETH , or REFUSETH, or IGNORETH if you get my drift. Your god obviously didn’t answer their prayers and yet let them continue to suffer and die and yet you’re still trying to sell me on the idea that prayers work. NO THEY DO NOT anymore than a placebo sugar pill will cure a person of terminal cancer.
    When a person gets well after saying a prayer , what takes place is often the natural power of mental suggestion that has a psychomatic effect upon the body and speeds the healing process ( prayer had absolutely NOTHING to do with it ). Many test groups and test subjects have proven this over and over again . I learned this in my freshman year in college as a psychology major and sociology minor.
    In addition no one on this thread has made any antagonistic attacks upon you ( however I can’t say the same when we atheists [ myself in particular] go onto religious blogs,websites,threads and present our points of view ).
    Furthermore if a child has a deadly virus and a hospital staff has a viral antibiotic that can save the child’s life and the parents refuse treatment for that child and that child dies as a result of parental refusal of medical treatment , then I believe without question that the parents should be criminally charged with that child’s death. Just because you have an ideological indoctrinated belief system that believes in miracles from the sky and hocus pocus cures doesn’t absolve the parents negligence from doing what is rational , sensible and prudent. No one has made any statements to offend you but if you want to continue and read into something that isn’t there then that sir is your perogative.
    I also am NOT trying to get you to accept atheism or secular freethought but when a person puts a theological doctrine ahead of medically proven scientific life-saving procedures then the person engaging in allowing a person to suffer and die as a refusal of proper medical treatment is indeed a criminal. If you believe otherwise then so be it. We obviously agree to disagree. I stand firm in my position as stated and the overwhelming majority of the medical community ( many who are Christians or simply religious themselves ) will support me on this.

    • Rocky

      Ok, to answer your question, if God knows our needs and desires, why do we bother praying and why do we find that our needs appear not to be met.? It is my understanding that God does know our needs and supplies them, and what I pray for is to better understand my relationship to God in order that I may more clearly see what that omnipresent, benevolent God has already provided to me. I do not pray for a car and then wonder why my driveway is still empty, nor do I ask for forgiveness for my sins and plead with God to be merciful in his punishment for them.

      I do not believe in a God that created the bubonic plague, or cancer, or financial meltdowns, or tsunamis. I think it is foolish and contradictory to believe in an beneficent, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent deity that creates disasters; or a deity that is helpless in the face of such calamities. It drives me crazy when people say you shouldn’t pray for God to heal, because it was God who gave us medicine. If God gave us medicine and he is everything that we say he is, why hasn’t he provided a cure for cancer also? Is this some sort of joke that God is playing on his creation? I think it is foolish to believe in a God who created man to be a sinner and then punishes him for something he can’t help but do. You’re absolutely right when you say that none of that makes any sense.
      So instead, I take a deductive approach and begin with essential truths about God and how he created man and then deduce from that a clearer view of what is really going on in my human experience. If God is all, and he is only good, then the reality is that there is only good, because nothing else can exist out side omnipotent God. And and then I pray to understand that better — to see the world as God sees it and as he created it –, because there are a lot of things in this world that would suggest otherwise. And in my experience those prayers, prayers for a better understanding of spiritual reality are what liberate me and others from seeming health problems, financial difficulties, discordant relationships etc…. I do not believe God “knows our human condition” nor that he created that apparent condition, whatever it is. God is only good, and what we see and experience otherwise is a mistake in our perception and understanding of reality. To sum it up again, very simply, it all comes down to perception and thought. Is our individual perception aligned with the divine spiritual view of creation? Proportionably as it is, we find that truth appearing in our experience. And this has a curative effect, and can also be preventative.

      There it is. I hope that answers your question. Let the feeding frenzy begin.

  • George, let’s see if I have this right…some fellow named Rocky believes in God; he recognizes that aetheists are not all wild-eyed leftist nutcases; yet, he won’t accept his recognition unless atheists agree to believe in the legitimacy of a god (thereby nullifying “atheist”); and, you and others are actually trying to carry on a rational conversation with him.

    I was already an atheist when I came across Ayn Rand’s writings. Somewhere in all her thinking was a little gem: you can never be rational with the irrational. Dealing with believers is a chronic Arghhh! I don’t care that they believe…they can’t stand it that someone doesn’t! I do care when they get into politics & law and impose their crappola on society.

    Anyway, I enjoy your writing/commentary, but (LOL) wonder about your threshold for pain!

    • Rocky

      Please, Don, tell me where exactly I insisted that you or anyone else here “agree to the legitimacy of a god”? And if you find it, quote me and explain your interpretation so that I may be more careful about my words in order to prevent misunderstandings like this in the future, thanks!

      • Hi Rocky,

        Sorry it has taken a bit to reply…for some reason, I would get an email of a posting but the site was not opening when I attempted to respond. ???

        George posted the following. I submit it because I cannot find the posting of yours which triggered my comments to George; and, I believe it is what I read:

        ” I realize that as atheists you do not accept that divine laws can exist , but since I know that not all atheists are angry , radical leftists , I have confidence that you can open your mind at least try to understand the logic behind this , even if you disagree with it “. TRANSLATION : ( in my opinion of course )— [ ” I realize now that not all atheists are angry whereby I have in the past accepted the stereotype that you are . If you open your mind : meaning ( look at things from my indoctrinated theological perspective and accept my theological beliefs at …

        Now, I do not claim to be one of the elite intelligensia (those folks whose only product is an idea…and who claim intelligence without ever demonstrating a smart bone in their body) yet it seems to me that you are saying: atheists are not all radical leftists but they are closed minded unless they accept a premise they don’t agree with. Huh?

        Every atheist I know can tell you anecdote after anecdote of theists’ responses to an announcement of atheism. Yours is a mild insult and others go all the way to physical violence. Nobody on this site believes in your god…yet here you are. You aren’t really asking about my, or anyone elses, thought processes about aetheism…you are present here to defend your god…missionary-like. Your defense is an insult whereas it is implicitly and inferentially: we aren’t whole people and are closed minded unless we see the light.

        ——-Oh, I never used the word “insist”—–

        Back to my point…and everyone on this site can tell you how nearly every theist denies they put atheists down. F__n’ amazing.

        Bottom line…that you believe in a god, by definition, you are irrational as you live your life based on a absolutely unprovable/unknowable mystical construct. It isn’t an insult. It is a statement of fact. To discuss with you is an excercise in futility. There is nothing you can say/type, respective of a god stupidiy, that deserves response. Or, as like with george, only as a cat would play with a mouse. Indeed, it is sometimes enjoyable to observe how the god folk will juke and jive to avoid facing fact. Didn’t you, Rocky< recently post some nonsense about your god is nopw genter, race and nationality flexible…LOL.

        I'm done. If you take insult from this…oh well. Truth is tough. If I ask and you say you believe in god, I say fine and I won't go into the topic. If you ask and I say I'm an atheist, you, as demonstrated here (by mere presence) launch into a conversion/"you poor fools" mode. And, when presented with evidence…"show me where" is the response. Meow…squeek, squeek!

        • Frank

          Hi Don,
          Brother Sam Singleton Atheist Evangelist has a great video about the pitfalls of trying to have a debate with a theist. I think you’ll like it.

        • George

          Don L , let’s see if I have this right , you made an earlier criticism of me trying to have a rational conversation with Rocky and it appears that in your post here it appears to be quite similar to my conversation with him. Just wondering what gives. Hmmmmmmm. I agree with everything you posted but I’m wondering when I engaged in similar discourse I was questioned. Perhaps we both have a substantial threshold for pain. By the way Don L , your post was right on target and one of the 3 checked responses of having liked your post was mine. Just curious.

        • George

          Don , you DID NOT run Rocky off and neither did I. Neither you or I made any insulting or harrasing remarks to Rocky. Rocky continued to post that prayer works and that their was a healing powerenin prayer and he continued to try to convince me ( or rather us ) that it works. I simply asked rocky repeatedly to PROVE IT and he never did. I asked him a few direct questions and NEVER go a direct answer regarding any of them . Rocky went on and on making arrogant statements like — ” let the feeding frenzy begin”, and accused me of engaging in a “pity party ” and claimed that I ( or we atheists ) should broaden our horizons and all that jargon and neither of us atheists attacked Rocky . I know from my personal experience and observations that prayer DOES NOT work and I have studied many tst cases of how when people engage in prayer that it is the ” powwer of mental suggestion ” that causes a chemical change in the body as a matter of psychomatic reaction/results and this is interpreted by religionists as their claim that prayer works and it doesn’t. prayers have failled about 99.99% of the time anyway and yet peoplen still engage in it because they just can’t seem to get away from their life long indoctrination.
          Rocky may in my opinion have appeared to be trying to “build a bridge ” or ” create a bond ” between atheism and religion but he ( IMHO) was trying to ‘slip” his theological ideology in under the guise of ” fraternal social partnership “. I wasn’t buying it and I’m sure YOU didn’t either. If this had been a religious blog and we atheists had posted any messages on it , we would have been cursed and called every insulting name in the book. You and I both know that I’m telling the truth. If I do say so myself , Rocky was not mistreated but couldn’t handle our logical rsponse which he didn’t expect and couldn’t rationally accept.

    • George

      I actually don’t let them get under my skin anymore. Since they are so bent on trying to convince us of their invisible man in the sky and they are ALWAYS proselytizing in our faces thenIi give it back to them and let them see how it feels. As far as criticism , they can dish it out but they certainly can’t take any themselves. I could tell you a multitude of confrontations I have had with religious zealots who actually believe they have a RIGHT to force or impose their beliefs on the rest of us. Then they have the audacity to call us intolerant when we stand up to them and reject their proselytizing. Can you believe this bullcrap ? It’s astonishing of how much arrogance we atheists have to endure on a regular basis. I wouldn’t mind what they believe but the problem is , THEY don’t just keep their religious beliefs to themselves. They are so bent on going around and saving every one’s soul and converting everyone in the name of Christ .
      I will afford any person the same respect and recognition he/she affords me. Unfortunately when you’re dealing with certain religious individuals , they communicate by being so wrapped in emotional feeling rather than logical discourse. I just have fun with them and laugh it off. Some people who are deeply indoctrinated in religion will reach a “saturation point” whereby nothing you say , no matter how factual, rational, logical, reasonable, or whatever will ever make them look beyond their indoctrination. Many theists will argue with you knowing full well that you or I make more sense but they will never concede to it because of their egotistical mindset and their blind loyalty to their indoctrinated theological ideology.

      • George

        Oh by the way , for the record , I never stated at any time that Rocky was trying to indoctrinate us or convert us at any time. My reply to Rocky was a focus on the issue of PRAYER.

        • George…being a newbie here:

          why do some replies have reply buttons and some don’t?
          what is all this unregistered stuff and what does one do to register? and why would you?

          But, my new friend…at least great new acquaintance (LOL)…geez…you must truly like pain:black, white wife, cop, atheist and interactor with theists…LOL!

          I’m only atheist and Polish! not so bad. LOL. Oh, I push economics…almost as bad as atheism!

          Oh, sorry if I caused Rocky to leave…

          Just got your post about a paper your looking for and the voting dilema:

          The Ron and Rand Paul phenoma is the hope I am looking at. Now Ron is a flaming pacifist…Rand and his father argue on these points. Both however are Austrian economic thinkers and it has been their presentations of policy which resonate so favorably. Austrian economics is totally logical and comprhensible. The gov’t econ is insanity…on purpose.

          I went to a local Tea Party event and met an AZ liberterian candidate, before Nov elections, what a horrid representative of the party.

          Oh yeah…the Fn’ christ jerks have totally gotten their grip on repubs. So far, however, the Tea Party (nationals) have managed to limit the push to the basicc core of limited government, lower taxes and restoration of the constitution. The latter, however, gets too much “creator crap”. If Jefferson were alive today, he and Adams and other founders would be atheists…they were into natural law…a natural “deity” and reason and rationality were considered higher principles than mysticism.

          Later

      • George,

        No…no criticism intended. I was supposed to be a tongue in cheek agreement…an attempt at humor. Given that it was my first time to the site, I found the discourse between you and Rocky amusing…I was in agreement with you and was just, again an attempt at humor, pointing out that from my “quick” perspective…Rocky was asking/stating something curious and I was getting a kick out of you trying to get through. As I indicated in another post…I enjoy your writings.

        • George

          And I also agree with you and the same here . Keep up the good work !!!!

  • George

    Rocky, what makes you think Frank’s statement lacked logic or method ? Was it because he didn’t buy into your superstitous beliefs ? Obviously ! Furthermore what makes you think he meant his statement as a joke ? Oh , I get it Rocky , if a person doesn’t agree with your indoctrinated ideology and states something contrary to your beliefs , then in your mind it automatically has to be a joke. Yeah , right ! Rocky , who do you think you’re fooling ? Prayer is no more effective in making things happen than the idea that frogs croaking will make it rain. With that kind of illogic I guess birds chirping will make worms crawl out from under the earth. Get real. Why don’t you check out your fellow religious blogs and see how atheists are subjected to virulent ad hominem attacks and harrassment for even coming onto the thread or blog comment page. I’ve had Christians call me the most vulgar and hate-mongering vile names imaginable just for stating something from a secular perspective.
    The day I see religionists (theists) practice what they preach will be the day pigs fly. One thing I have noticed about you religionists is that you can dish it out but you certainly can’t take it. It’s either your way or the highway. What makes you think Frank wasn’t serious ? Because you don’t agree with it ? Prayer is a fallacy. Prayer is the uttering of words into thin air to some imaginary invisible being that doesn’t exist or engaging in some form of mental telepathy to some mega-ghost in outer space hoping that this supernatural ghost- like deity will use some form of magic to make things happen. Well gee Rocky, if you’re going to believe that , then you may as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Why not ? If an invisible ghost that has supernatural powers and performs magical acts can be accepted as real then why not believe in Supernatural Gremlins ?
    Prayer is no more effective than a sugar pill making a person with a terminal illness well again. Just because a person says some form of prayer and he/she gets well does not mean that the prayer works ? What about the zillions of cases where people pray and they continue to suffer or die ? What excuse do you make for your failing prayer then Rocky ? Oh I get it , god was on lunch break during that time——–yeah that’s it. Or maybe god was on Spring Break or vacation. Perhaps god was sleeping sound and was snoring so loud that his godly snoring blocked out the prayers and so the people will just have to re-pray and sooner or later god might take the ear plugs out and get right on it. I have seen people who were terminally ill pray and their love one’s prayed for them fervently as well and they still died. Yeah, I know you’re probably going to say the person is up there on a cloud in heaven and all that bunk. I’ve heard it all before Rocky. Sir, please tell us something new that we haven’t heard before as I’m sure the posters could use a change of written drivel.

    • Rocky

      “Such a law would do two things. First it would force the believers to bet their own lives not just the lives of their children on their ignorant beliefs. And secondly, given the obvious outcome in most cases, would help eliminate morons from the human gene pool.”

      The basic assumption here is that the outcome of prayer instead of reliance on medicine is death. What I find lacking is any method for arriving at that conclusion given that the only examples I see represented in Frank’s statement are the one’s from the original blog post. This does not take into account any other instances of treatment through prayer beyond the 6 or so that appear in that article. And I do not believe that that sample size is sufficient to represent all attempts at healing through prayer that happen in the world everyday, nor to make it “obvious” that death is always the outcome. I don’t have data that will satisfy you that prayer works, and that is not my purpose anyway; my simple point is that Frank’s assumption is not grounded in anything but his belief that parents who choose prayer are selfish and would martyr their children for their beliefs.

      • George

        Rocky , you still DON’T GET IT . I agree with Don L in his post above but I have fun with this. Just because a person utters some words (prayer) to some imaginary and invisible being that no one has ever proved to exist and a good thing should happen afterwards does NOT mean the prayer worked. I don’t have the actual figures but I would venure to say that in 99.99% of the time prayers fail tremendously. In facvt , we atheists have a saying and it reads– ” Nothing fails like prayer” .
        Furthermore prayer itself is an absurdity. According to you Christians , god knows what is in our minds and what we are in need of even before we pray. Well, if that’s true as you and your religious cohorts proclaim, then why pray ? Isn’t that being redundant ? If your deity already knows all and sees all , then why doesn’t your so-called loving, caring, beneficent and protective savior simply give the individual what he/she needs as an autonomic godly response as simply the godly thing to do ?
        Now that would make rational sense. Oooooops, I forgot , I’m trying to communicate with a religious individual that smirks at rationality. My bad !

  • George

    This is in response to the post by Rocky ( for some reason my reply wouldn’t post next to his post ). Rocky it can be very annoying when I hear statements such as the one you made by stating : — ” I realize that as atheists you do not accept that divine laws can exist , but since I know that not all atheists are angry , radical leftists , I have confidence that you can open your mind at least try to understand the logic behind this , even if you disagree with it “. TRANSLATION : ( in my opinion of course )— [ ” I realize now that not all atheists are angry whereby I have in the past accepted the stereotype that you are . If you open your mind : meaning ( look at things from my indoctrinated theological perspective and accept my theological beliefs at least partially then and only then will I consider you atheists to be OPEN MINDED ” . ] Religion has nothing to do with science -PERIOD !
    Tell me Rocky , do you go before your fellow religionists (theists) and ask them to open THEIR minds to look at things from a secular perspective ? I doubt it. Oh , I get it—–a mind is ONLY open when the secularist sways his/her beliefs toward that of the religionist (theist) . Ahhhh, I see ! How about vice versa ? When are YOU and your ilk going to open YOUR minds Rocky ? In other words ( according to you ) a person’s mind is open when we atheists accept or even lean toward believing that there is an invisible, formless, immaterial, mystical/mysterious/indescribable supernatural Space Ghost out there somewhere ( even though no one has ever seen it or proven it’s existence ) but we know it’s true because a book written 2,000 years ago during an era of time when 99.99% of the world was highly superstitious. Yeah Rocky, I’m really impressed.
    You want to talk about a display of routine anger. Try listening to the popular right wing talk radio shows whereby atheists are constantly bashed, denigrated, maligned, vilified, defamed and mocked perpetually. You have really got some nerve even using the word “angry” in referring to atheists.
    Furthermore Rocky , why should a person pray to your supposed god in the first place ?. If your deity is so merciful and caring and loving , then why doesn’t your god just automatically heal the person or prevent the person from geting the disease or injury in the first place as the godly thing to do since your go can perform miracles , is all powerful , almighty, and awesome ? ? Why does your deity require a person to beg , grovel and humiliate himself/herself before him before he (god) takes action , and even then rarely if ever ?
    Tell me Rocky , why doesn’t your god heal little infants ( and yet lets them suffer and die from cancer , other diseases and even natural disasters ) –or acts of god ? Babies are not capable of praying. Since babies do not have any belief in any religion , then that naturally makes them atheists .
    Why did your loving god produce the Bubonic Plague, the Spanish Flu , cancer, Ebola and a host of other diseases that kill innocent men, women, children and babies ? What sins did these little children and babies commit to deserve such horrible torture and agonizing death ? Is this the works of your so-called beneficent, loving and merciful god ?
    No Rocky, you have got it backwards —we atheists do indeed have open minds and that is why we question, analyze, research, reason, use rational thinking and logic, scientific experimentation and also engage in skeptical inquiry before drawing a conclusion or hypothesis. Unlike theists who accept things by “blind acceptance indoctrination” called FAITH , we atheist do the homework first before we ” buy into it”.
    In addition it is NOT us atheists that go around trying to convert people to atheism, or go around with the aggressive “in your face” proselytizing. If there are a lot of angry atheists, then they or we are justified having to thrive in a religion saturated society whereby everywhere we go there are religionists trying to shove their religious doctrine down our throats and adamantly refuse to leave other people alone. You have the unmitigated gall to assert or imply that we atheists are angry and closed minded and yet when have you religionists tried to open your minds and mentally step away from your indoctrinated ideology and truly question and analyze what you have been taught via your religious perceptions ? The term “divine law” is a misnomer. We only have the laws of nature and science. Superstition and mythology cannot produce laws. Nice try Rocky , but no cigar .

    • Macnvettes

      I like letting youtube do my talking for me, it’s much funnier.


      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCJ8rb8Grw

      And the fundamentalists always try to rationalize and minimize the atrocities of the bible, so I ask a few things that instantly piss them off, such as:
      What if, instead of bible verses, we hung sharia law in courthouses?
      What if we replaced the word “god” with “allah” in the pledge or on our currency?
      I bet they’d become constitutionalists really quick then. Then I offer a compromise, instead of the “10 commandments”, which aren’t even the real ones, and are old testament, why not hang some new testament verses in the courthouses, after all, we are a “christian nation”, and the old testament is jewish right? The verses I suggest are:

      “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

      “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

      “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

      In this way, we can see exactly what “christian behavior” entails, and surprisingly, it’s not all that different from sharia.

    • Rocky

      Thank you for your thoughtful reply, George. I’m sorry I didn’t make my meaning clear enough in my initial post. I am not here to convince you that God exists. I get it, you don’t believe in God for a lot of totally legitimate reasons. That’s fine with me, and I don’t hate you for it, nor do I think you’re a complete moron because you don’t believe the same things I do. And if I could I would apologize for all the angry religious people there are in the world. All of the major religions teach respect and compassion for our fellow human beings, and that message is too often lost in religious fervor. It’s truly unfortunate. Prejudice, hatred and self-righteousness are destructive no matter from where they originate.

      When I wrote that I do not believe that all atheists are angry radical leftists, I meant that exactly as I wrote it, sincerely; no sarcasm. Surely you are aware of the common stereotypes that fall on your viewpoint, and I want you to know that I do not accept them. I believe you are all free-thinking, thoughtful and independent people who do not fit into one mold. I would encourage you to think of religious people in this manner also. We are not all the same. Yes we have the common belief in God, but we all have different definitions of that God and expectations of what He/She does. And we have all had different experiences that have led us to that belief, it’s not just about attending a church and being brain washed by clergy. Religious people can be free-thinking, intelligent and reasonable too. As I said, prejudice and self-righeousness are destructive regarless of their origin.

      And, again, I’m not trying to convince you to accept my premise, only to consider the logic that follows from that premise. Please point it out to me if you disagree, but I don’t think I’ve said anything here that could be reasonably constrewed as proselytizing. The author of this post posed a question about child deaths in religions that rely on prayer instead of medical care, so I posted more current articule relating to the same topic; and he/she said Christian Science is an oxymoron, I disagree, so I provided an explanation. You and anyone else can take it or leave it, but expressing a divergent view itself is not sufficient to warrant such a backlash. I appreciate that Jillian took the time to pick apart my assesment piece by piece, thereby dismissing it based on researched argument, instead of the simple fact that I admitted to believing in God and therefore must be “a simpleton” whose thoughts are valueless.

      • George

        Rocky I understand your presentation and I certainly DO NOT want you to think that I am in any way trying to engage in any “backlash” against you. Having said that , I saw your EXPLANATION . I simply DO NOT agree with your explanation. THEOLOGY and SCIENCE are not the same and are NOT compatible. Many theologians have attempted to mix science and religion or try to convince the world that science supports their Biblical scripture . It does not, and I could write volumes on this perpetually. Let me let you in on a little secret Rocky ( please don’t tell anyone ) but I was raised as a Christian. I was the altar boy at my church , went to Sunday school and church services every sunday, Bible school, vacation Bible camp, sang in the church choir and I attended a seminary as a student minister and I traveled with a minister and helped teach theology. I studied the Bible day and night every day of the year and I lived and breathed religion.
        I have spoken at churchs as a guest speaker and the people loved my presentations. I say this not to brag but simply to say that I am NOT ignorant on the subject of theology but rather to say that I am a learned scholar on the subject. I began to study various other religions extensively and I have traveled and visited a multitude of churches and befriended many pastors, ministers, and Rabbii’s. I have the utmost respect for my religious friends but I DO NOT embrace or accept their doctrine and only want to be left alone and allowed to be accepted as a citizen of our great country as everyone else. That’s all. It’s that simple.
        Remember , former President George Bush Sr. stated to the effect that he didn’t think that atheists should be considered as citizens. Gee , considering that I served in the Marines as a platoon leader ( Honorable Discharge ) , Former U.S. Army ROTC (squad leader and rifle team leader ), retired deputy sheriff ( receiving Excellent Service Award ) , former community activist and mentor,former Cub Scout, former Boy scout, former Civil Air Patrol, former security officer captain, etc etc . I could go on but I don’t want to bore you. I say all this because even though I have served my country and community well and have dedicated myself to being an American patriot and I have paid my dues to society , many Christians in American do not believe that I ( or atheists in general should be considered to be recognized as citizens ).
        No religious blog ( especially Christian blogs ) would allow the same dialogue to me and other atheists as we atheists allow to the religious community. Just food for thought Rocky.

        • Rocky

          Thanks, George. I appreciate knowing that about your background. And, you’re right, no one called me vulgar names. However, I would assert that calling someone, or a group of people morons and simpletons and suggesting that its impossible to have a rational conversation with someone who believes in God because believers are not rational or intelligent still qualifies as an insult — just for the record. And I know you, personally, are not the one responsible for all of those comments.

          This comparison may sound like a stretch, one which some readers may not find palatable; but I’m writing it to you, not them. Again, we start from totally different premises, so I ask you not to dismiss the idea simply because you disagree with the premise of my beliefs. I find that atheists and Christian Scientists have a great deal in common, in terms of our position as minorities in American society. As you explain, it’s tremendously difficult to exist as a atheist in a highly religious society where it seems that everyone around you makes you a charity case for conversion because, clearly, you are lost and need to find God in order to find yourself again, right? Well, Christian Scientists have a very similar problem. We do not use conventional western medicine, EVERYONE else does, and EVERYONE else is ready to try to force us to do it the conventional way, in spite of what we as individuals have found to be an effective alternative (this is where I need you to reserve judgment until I finish my comparison 🙂 ). And using your powers of empathy extrapolating from your own experience, you can imagine how frustrating it is to believe in something that works for you, and have seemingly an entire country around you telling you that you are crazy and trying to make you do what they do instead. Sound familiar?
          And much as you see that religion sometimes appears to be more of a brainwashing mechanism that makes people into sheep, I would borrow a statement you mad earlier, “Since babies do not have any belief in any religion, then that naturally makes them atheists.” If, as you suggest, babies come out as a blank slate, so to speak, that also means that they do not believe that conventional western medicine is the only path to health or that their health is subject to all of the things science claims that it is subject to; and so as a child (in this case, the vast majority of children) is raised to think in that way, he/she is, in effect, being brainwashed to believe in medicine and germ theory, etc…. Now, (still reserving judgment) I believe you also posed the example of the placebo effect and you may also be aware of the nocebo effect as well as a growing number of other instances and studies that suggest that mental conditions have a definite observable impact on health and healing.
          So, to tie this all together, I have to provide a brief explanation about the difference between Christian Science and faith-healing, because they are different (again, I realize that you do not accept my premise, but hear me out). Faith healers, as you imply, pray to nothing. Faith healers (and many mainstream Christians) pray to an unknown god, in a way that I liken to crossing ones fingers as one pulls the lever on a slot machine. Their prayer is based on a belief that God is good and evil and they simply hope that God is going to be good to them or save their life on any given day: God is no different than luck. Christian Science is based on a very different idea of what God is and the nature of reality. The essential idea as it relates to this topic is that health has its roots in mental conditions (which are informed by our notions about God), not physical ones. So, in conclusion, I’m not trying to convince you that prayer works or that God exists, but to suggest that we find ourselves in a similar dilemma regarding our relationship to the majority in American society, and that pervasive beliefs about health and the idea that science is the universal panacea may not be the only way. An idea which we see emerging in mainstream scientific and medical discourse. Ok, finished, feel free to pass judgment. 🙂 (I’m happy to explain CS beliefs in greater detail, but only if someone is genuinely interested in trying to understand. I feel no need to explain further if it means I’ll just be voluntarily opening myself up to a verbal firing squad).

          One final idea in response, you and others have said that there is no proof that prayer works and that there are always more plausible explanations. True, I cannot provide proof that will be acceptable to you. However, I find that the scientific explanations offered for spontaneous healing are not especially rational either. When a healing happens supposedly as a result of prayer, the scientific explanation often is that “well, sometimes matter just heals itself spontaneously.” Regressive cancers are a great example of this. Someone has cancer, and then it spontaneously disappears. Ok, but that is not any more of an explanation than the one that prayer worked. There is no evidence of why that healing happened, and so I would argue that a prayer explanation and a spontaneous regression explanation are equally valid in such a case, particularly if no other treatment was offered. And in cases where no treatment was given, including prayer, there is also no proof that someone else’s prayers didn’t effect that healing. Just something to think about.

    • Rocky

      And to answer another one of your questions: yes, I do ask other religious people to be open-minded. Because diminishing other people, insulting them, hurting them, whatever, because they disagree with you (this is a general you; not referring to George, or anyone else here) is destructive and uncalled for. PERIOD. It makes no difference to me who is doing it or what they believe in. We are never justified in abusing other human beings simply on the grounds that they hold different beliefs.
      First and foremost I want to encourage thoughtful dialogue based on accurate information and mutual respect. The accurate information component is what landed me here in the first place, and I am still here in the spirit of the latter.

      • George

        Rocky I believe in thoughtful dialogue but everytime I write a letter to the editor in any newspaper or post on any comment page thread on a subject regarding religion , the religious trolls attack me in full force. I NEVER implied that you are like that so please sir do not put any words in my mouth ( and I’m not implying that you are). I understand that you are not trying to convert any of us atheists to your belief but from your postings you are ( in my opinion ) trying to convince us that prayer works and this is where we cross paths. I am not anti-anyone. I hate to use this cliche but I can honestly say that about 95% of my personal friends and associates are Christians.
        When I tell your fellow Christians that I am an atheist , one would think that I have horns growing out of my head or something. I simply DO NOT believe in the supernatural or the paranormal ( that’s all ). I am NOT anti-anybody. Also notice that not a single atheist on this comment page has called you any vulgar names or harrassed you but I get this type of treatement ALL THE TME from Christians when I announce my secular beliefs . Try standing in our (atheist) shoes for awhile and then come back and tell me how it feels. I guarantee you it would be an amazing eye opener.

  • Jillian Becker

    Further to my answer below to Rocky discussing what science is, I will add this, quoting a comment I made in our section “About us”:

    When one speaks of “the law of the land”, or “Constitutional law”, or “the law given by God to Moses”, or “sharia law”, or when one says “it is against the law to drink and drive”, the word “law” carries a particular meaning: it means a rule, or a set of rules, made by an authority (human – or, as some people believe, divine) for human beings to obey.

    A quite different meaning of the word “law” is found in expressions such as “the second law of thermo-dynamics”, “the law of gravity”, “the law of diminishing returns”. Here the word means a principle reasoned from certain observations, usually arrived at by inductive logic: such and such a phenomenon has been observed always to have occurred when the circumstances are such and such so it is assumed that it will always occur in the same circumstances, hence – though always remaining ultimately theoretical – it can be said to be a “law” of physics etc.

    I think you, Rocky, are using the word “law” in the “set of rules” meaning. If you were using it in the second sense, then you’d be implying that every time someone prayed a certain prayer, a certain result would occur. But that doesn’t happen, does it?

    On other points you mention: One can be logical starting from an irrational premise. We like to be very logical and not irrational. And certainly we are not leftists; we thoroughly oppose collectivism. Angry? There are things one should be angry about. Parents letting their children die in agony is one such thing.

  • Macnvettes

    Anyone remember this story?:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30763438/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

    these sick and twisted people actually fled the state with the child to avoid medical treatment!

  • Macnvettes

    How about this asshole:

  • Macnvettes

    Ever wonder what it’s like in some of the more “fundamentalist” churches?

  • Rocky

    You ask a good question about whether this is still happening today, although all the instances cited in that artile occurred over 20 years ago. This cuurent article might be of interest regarding three faith-healing cases that are going through the Oregon system right now. Take note of the reference that the Christian Science church is not defending the parents in these cases, as they are member of another denomination whose beliefs and practices are distinct from Christian Science, and that the CS spokesperson comments on the responsibility for reasonable action that parents carry as they choose to exercise their religious freedom.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-03-28-column28_ST_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

    And as you think about the supposedly oxymoronic label “Christian Science,” I encourage you to think about it less in the context of modern scientific inquiry and more in terms of the root of the word, which relates more closely to “knowledge.” And also think about is as an idea of process, as in the scientific method, or scientific laws that govern action. It is in that spirit that Christian Scientists find that we can acheive replicable results through an understand of divine law, rather than spontaneous miracles that, as you suggest, appear to be rooted in chance and devoid of rationality. The basic idea behind the use of this term is that just as there are laws that seem to govern matter, there are also divine laws that can be relied upon just surely as we depend on gravity to keep us grounded everyday. I realize that as atheists you do not accept that divine laws can exist, but since I know not all atheists are angry, radical leftists, I have confidence that you can open your mind at least try to understand the logic behind this, even if you disagree with it.

    And finally, I would offer the comparison to the social sciences, which use the word “science” as well as concepts that originated in the physcial sciences, although social phenomena cannot be observed or tested in the same way that material phenomena can. So why can’t those concepts be extended in other directions, like into religion?

    • Jillian Becker

      “Science” derives from “scio”, to know in the sense of knowing (eg) facts – as “savoir” in French. It is not the same as knowing (eg) a person – as “connais” in French. The sort of knowledge you’re speaking of is the gnosis – the “connais” sort of knowing. Religious “knowledge” is gnostic – known instuitively. It is utterly different from scientific knowledge.

      About the “social sciences”. It has often been pointed out – by Karl Popper, the great 20th century philosopher of science, for instance, and by Friedrich Hayek the Nobel prize-winning economist, with full explanation ( but I don’t depend on them, I see it the same way as they do) – that in that phrase, “science” is a complete misnomer. For brevity’s sake, rather than relate the arguments, I advise you to look them up if you are seriously interested in the point you raise. .

      Now to science and religion. Science (proper) has to do exclusively with nature. The question “Is there a God?” is not a scientific question. To ask it is to leave the realm of science and enter into an entirely different universe of discourse, the supernatural.

      As to Christ being a scientist – the poor chap whom the Greeks call “Jesus”, if he was a healer as he’s reputed to have been, may have used some science – who knows? But ‘Christ” is another thing altogether; not just a translation of the Jewish word Messiah, which meant an earthly human political saviour, but an invention by St. Paul, a divine figure. Nothing for science to do there.

  • Frank

    I suggest a federal law regarding faith healing along these lines:
    “It is OK if you chose to pray for your sick child rather than seek medical help. However if your child dies you will be immediately executed by hanging.”

    Such a law would do two things. First it would force the believers to bet their own lives not just the lives of their children on their ignorant beliefs. And secondly, given the obvious outcome in most cases, would help eliminate morons from the human gene pool.

    • Macnvettes

      That law would also give the left ammunition to call for nationalized healthcare. If you require someone to do something, you have to provide a means to do so.

    • Rocky

      May I point out that in “most cases” the reason you even heard about it is because the child died; no one ever goes to court for healing someone. Your estimate of the “obvious” frequency of child dealths, is not based on an representative sample of who is using prayer to treat illness, how frequently and what the results are. Of course your answer of how many children die is going to be 100% if you are only looking at cases in which the child died.

      • Jillian Becker

        So your God discriminates among suffering children?
        Look, Rocky, if your omnipotent God exists and lets children die in agony, he is an evil god.
        The only other conclusion you could draw is that there is no god.

        • Rocky

          I’m simply commenting on the lack of logic or method behind Frank’s statement that a law punishing parents whose children die due to lack of medical treatmens ought to be hanged would eliminate morons from the gene pool, because of the “obvious outcome in most cases,” which to me is not so obvious from his example. And I realize that as he probably wrote it as a casual joke made among people with similar viewpoints, not a real analysis of any real data.

          I do believe in God and I believe prayer works. I’ve seen it work in my own life and the lives of my friends and family. However, I am not trying to persuade you (Jillian, or the general audience reading this blog) to believe that, only to maintain an objective, fair perspective as you discuss other people’s beliefs and practices.

      • Frank

        Rocky,
        Here’s a news flash for you – your god doesn’t heal anyone because your god is imaginary. People recover from minor illnesses like colds and flu because their bodies fight off the bacteria or virus causing the illness. But serious ailments like diabetes for example need medical intervention for the person to stay alive. I am not suggesting that you must rush your child to the doctor for every little sniffle. But I am saying that only a delusional moron would sit there and watch their child get sicker and weaker day after day and not seek medical attention for them. And if the child dies they are just as guilty of murder as if they had put a gun to their child’s head and pulled the trigger and they should be punished for it.

        • Rocky

          I agree, no parent should let that happen to their child. Parents should be reasonable about turning to an alternative if they find that they are not achieving results through their first choice. If a parent chooses to rely on prayer instead of traditional medicine he/she should be held accountable for these kinds of mistakes, just as doctors should face consequences for their mistakes that result in the deaths of their patients. Results are what should matter, not the method. Obviously, it gets a bit complicated when we don’t know where to place the blame. Is it God’s fault? Is it the parents’ fault? And fortunately or unfortunately, we live in the good old United States where Federal and State law can’t dictate that God doesn’t exist and therefore the parents must be murders.

          And I agree that the human body is great at healing itself. But you say that some serious ailments require medical intervention for the person to stay alive. It does seem that way most of the time, I don’t disagree. However, I have personal experience with cases in which those exact circumstances seemed to be present, and no medical intervention was sought and the problem was resolved and has not recurred. I can’t discount that. In those cases my interest is to understand why that happened, and how it can be replicated, and I find that science may not be the only explanation for everything. You don’t have to accept it, but I’m just pointing out that there are exceptions to your assertion, just as there are instances in which prayer seems to have failed. Things aren’t always so absolute.

    • Hi Frank. Seems you can’t reply to a “like” comment…so, replying to the only spot with your name and a reply button.

      Thanks for the link!!! Looking foward to more chats/typings…whatever this is called? LOL

      Later,

      Don L

  • Ralph

    The explanation is very simple. There is no god.

    • George

      Ralph , the problem is that simpletons can’t understand anything that is so simple. It’s sad but true.

  • George

    A few articles of interest for your reading is on the internet. check out the article titled : ” Dear Believer” by Dan Barker. It is on http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/barker_believer.html ,,,,,, also check out Freedom from religion: Dear Christian by Dan Barker , it’s on http://www.fringe.davesource.com/Fringe/…/Freedom-From-religion.html and the blog titled : Dear Christian-Ex-Christian,net ,,,at http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/5457-dear-christian/ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and also Dear Believer in Jesus ; AN OPEN LETTER TO THE CLERGY , MISSIONARIES at http://www.Christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/dearbelieverinjesus.html ,,,,,,,,,,,, and finally ,,, Dear Christian -I am an atheist ,, by ExChristian.Net ,,, located at http://www.exchristian.net ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. These articles and open letters will give you pleanty of ammunition against the religious nut-cases out there. Of course christians will continue to believe in their superstition no matter what evidence or scientific facts you present to them. They are simply incapable of shedding their mythological beliefs no matter what. I detest Karl Marx and his socialist doctrine ( I am a capitalist ) but he was indeed correct in one thing when he stated : ” Religion is the opiate of the masses”.

    • Ralph

      Thank you for the links.

      • George

        Ralph, I have seriously been contemplating on putting together a seminar/convention for atheist conservatives during the summer of 2012. Perhaps as suggested some place like Las Vegas would be ok but I’m taking in consideration the travel expenses and hotel costs. I wanted to keep it simple and at a low cost hotel ballroom. Las Vegas is “high dollar” expensive . I was thinking of somewhere in the mid USA so that it would be sort of an equal distance from all four corners of the country for travelers ( especially with the price of gas and airline tickets ). Perhaps a title like the —– First Annual Conservative Freethinkers Convention——-or perhaps National Conservative Atheist Seminar . It would be nice for like minded secular conservatives to get together and socialize and listen to secular conservative freethinkers and have a few conservative atheist “workshops” , book exhibits, and guest speakers. We could invite a few media sources to give us some national publicity to let the public know we are out here. This would certainly break the negative stigma that the liberal left has put before the public regarding atheists.
        The general public believes that all atheists are left wing liberal socialist/communist, anti-American , and all that nonsense. The left wing secular camps promoted this mentality to a large extent . I have met quite a number of atheists who are moderate and conservative and also Republican and Libertarian.
        The radical liberal secular left has done more harm to the image of atheism than all the right wing christian fundies could ever dream of. I have been scouting around and trying to get more and more feedback on the idea. I just can’t stomach going to another left wing liberal secular assembly. I truly get nauseated when I sit among them and listen to their left-wing drivel. It could be a good motivator for us and also a positive thing to promote us in the media. I actually believe that I could put such a thing together in a year if there is enough support. I would have to do research and planning and calculate the costs, availability of hotels/ballrooms ( and reservations ) and such. As for me I would feel so much more comfortable around secular freethinkers who share my values and beliefs without the left-wing “spin”.
        So far , I’ve done a rough draft outline of how such an event could materialize into a meaningful and worthwhile assembly. It’s just a thought for now but I’m still pursuing the idea. If I get enough interest , I will pursue it further. Take care .
        Yours in Freethought ———————— George

  • George

    The term ” Christian Scientist” is indeed an oxymoron. I don’t know about the prefix “Oxy” but the suffix “moron” certainly applies and is fitting. There is absolutely NOTHING scientific about Christianity or for that matter ‘religion’ in general. Religion itself is anti-science. I read an article where a mother who is a member of the Christian Scientists refused medical treatment for her little daughter who was ill with a viral illness and her daughter was refused medical treatment because the mother believed that jesus and praying would save the little girl. The little girl died as a result of the refusal of medical treatment. Medical experts stated that a simple medical antibiotic would have save the little girl’s life. That’s right , a simple inoculation injection of an anti-viral medication would have made the little girl well, but the religious nut-case mom said that Jesus would take care of her and all she (mom) had to do was pray. Yeah, right.
    After the little girl died , the mom said that god had prepared a special place in heaven for her and this was god’s plan for a better life in heaven and all that bullcrap. What a bunch of dangerous and brainwashed idiots. Her daughter is dead because of the mom’s negligence and refusal to seek medical care and now the mom’s deadly behavior is excused away as being a right to practice their religion. Can you believe this BS ? This is the idiocy that burns me up and makes my blood boil , and yet these brainwashed lunatics have the unmitigated gall to call us atheists immoral while their entire lives are engulfed in superstition , mythology , fantasy and hate-mongering bigotry. The biggest problem is that their religion is life threatening and affects the lives of others and yet our religious saturated society considers this a justifiable right and has no problem with it.
    Now we have laws on the books that actually protect the parents who medically neglect their children and prevent their children from receiving life-saving medical care [ all in the name of religion ]. Once again , what’s wrong with this picture ?