Government: our servant not our master 18

In a free society, anyone who wants to benefit a fellow citizen, by giving him money for instance, may do so; and if the giving makes the giver feel good, that shouldn’t trouble anyone else. Self-esteem also needs feeding.

But it’s an entirely different matter when it comes to a citizen being forced by government – the only agency that has the necessary power – to give money for the benefit of others.

For a society to be kept free, the power of government needs to be kept within narrow bounds. That’s why we conservatives list “small government”  among our primary principles, following immediately and logically after “the protection of liberty”, which is the first and last thing government should exist for.

As soon as government takes it upon itself to extract money from prosperous Peter and give it to poor Paul, it has exceeded its legitimate power and become a threat to liberty instead of its protector.

Walter Williams writes at Townhall:

If a person benefits from a hamburger, a suit of clothing, an apartment or an education, who should be forced to pay for it? I believe the question has only one moral answer, namely the person who benefits from a good or service should be forced to pay for it …

Our country’s problem is that too many Americans want to benefit from things for which they expect other Americans to be taxed. …

Does one American have a moral right to live at the expense of another American? To be more explicit, should Congress, through its taxing authority, give the Bank of America, Citibank, Archer Daniels Midland, farmers, dairymen, college students and poor people the right to live off of the earnings of another American? I’m guessing that only a few Americans would agree with my answer: No one should be forcibly used to serve the purposes of another American.

We agree with his answer.

As long as government is doing what it must – protecting the liberty of all citizens equally from foreign enemies and domestic crime – it serves the people. If it uses its power to force some citizens to  “serve the purposes” of others, it oppresses the people.

Government should be our servant, not our master.

  • Ralph

    My problem with a retail sales tax is that if you have a sales tax and inflation you have a tax increase. We pay more for the goods and a higher tax. That really isn’t fair.

    I earn my money and no government should have the authority to take it from me. I would send money to support a government that protected my rights and property.

    Knowing that will never be allowed a sales tax with all it’s imperfections is probably the best we can do.

    • George

      I agree  Ralph !  I would hope that if we DID  have inflation with a national sales tax that the tax rate wouldn’t rise but knowing the government ,  I wouldn’t put it past them knowing their track record.  I have had my doubts about the AMOUNT  of the proposed percentage tax rate amount charged and I  also agree with your statement — ” a sales tax with all it’s imperfections is probably the best we can do “.

  • Ralph

         There is no such thing as a fair tax. Some one is going to get screwed. Trust me I know.

    • George

      There is NO real taxation system that I have seen that is truly fair.  I have found faults in our current system , the Fair Tax and the Flat Tax .  And I will be the first to admit ( not to sound like a liberal ) but I have seen major corporations get big  TAX SHELTER advantages that the little guy doesn’t get.     I like the idea of a national sales tax instead of a payroll deducted system.  I have found good and bad in all.    I spoke to a friend of mind who is a conservative Christian and he liked the idea of the Fair Tax structure and then I spoke to another aquaintance about the Fair Tax and he is a staunch left-wing liberal and he liked the idea of the Fair Tax.   Actually , I do believe the word “Fair Tax ” is misleading and there  are indeed holes in the system.   If someone wanted to point out the various  flaws of such a system  , I am totally open minded to listen just as I am open to all the other perspectives. Thanks for making your point Ralph with a mature demeanor without being antagonistic.    I have accepted viewpoints before and later changed my mind because someone explained things in a thorough and CIVIL manor in detail and then I got a different outlook on the matter. By the same token I have witnessed the same in reverse ( and I’m being totally honest here ).  That’s why we have a discussion forum ( to discuss , not argue or attack ). I’m open for any and all views as long as the person can make his/her point without trying to engage in a “pissing contest”.  I like the idea of a national sales tax to generate tax revenue ( and even that may have it’s drawbacks ) and as stated before , we can discuss it.  I do indeed have some problems with what is known as the Fair Tax  and I have stated such to a few friends and we maturely discussed it and shared ideas and made suggestions  WITHOUT ATTACKS OR ARGUMENTS.   Thanks Ralph , and I am open to hear more from what you know.   

  • Ralph

    John Kennedy once said “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country”  At first it might sound like  patriotism; but t isn’t. Kennedy didn’t understand that governments should be created to serve the people. People are not created to serve the government. A simple idea that has been lost since FDR.

  • George

     I totally support the Fair Tax but the politicians in Washington DC will oppose it at every step because it takes away their power and their ability to steal the tax money . The reason liberals want to tax the rich overwhelmingly is because they have CLASS ENVY. They want to steal from the achievers and give to the moochers of society. The liberals  want  to take money from the producers of society and give it away to the parasites of society. When the losers don’t get their way they always scream —- VICTIM VICTIM VICTIM !!!!!!!   It’s the entitlement mentality , group think mentality and cop out excuse to blame others for their failures in life.

    • George — I was once stupid about Fairtax, so I loved it.

      Fairtax seems great — but it’s goofy goofy goofy nonsense.   Did you know that in the fine print, they have requirements that ALL city government, ALL state government, ALL county governments, pay (total) over 300 billion dollars — IN ADVANCE.

      Let me repeat that  — IN ADVANCE.  Your city, YOUR county, YOUR state.  And that put that shit, in a FOOTNOTE.  A frigging FOOTNOTE.

      Guess what — unless you pull your  head out your gullible backside, you don’t know crap about the Fairtax.   It’s goofy.   Massive taxes they hide.  Massive bullshit. They have the government as “a taxable employer”  so your city, county and state, and federal government, has to pay a 23,000 for every 100,00o in wages, benefits, and PENSIONS.

      Yes  — its  a tax on PENSIONS,  Yes, its a tax on WAGES.  Yes, it’s a tax on BENEFITS.

      Military benefits, TAXED. Military pay, TAXED. Military wages, TAXED.  

      They have all kinds of crazy ass shit like this, that they HIDE  — and they HIDE for a very very good reason– because it’s GOOFY AS HELL. DECEPTIVE as hell.

      They have other goofy shit too. Like people with cancer or heart disease, even if they only make 20,000 dollars, would have to pay (somehow) 50,000 or more in TAXES. That is how Fairtax math adds up — so really, it’ doesnt add up.

      Use real math, instead of bullshit – Fairtax math is a joke, a futting joke.

      It’s own main researcher — Dale Jorgenson – complete exposed it as a farce, and as an impossibility.

      There is NO RESEARCH that supports Fairtax  — NONE. I mean NONE.  Got that NONE.
      They claim all this research – utter nonense.
      The “extensive” research was done by Dale Jorgenson of Harvard.  Fairtax lied their ass off and said he supported them. Bull futting shit. He came out an exposed them, and exposed their goofy “plan”.   That was their MAIN “researcher”

      Fairtax liars have been fooling stupid people for 13 years.  I know – I was one.

      We need a whole tax code.  We don’t need more bullshit and balderdash.

      • Mark, you are making a lot of claims here, and some of them sound like fear mongering.
        You state: “Like people with cancer or heart disease, even if they only make 20,000 dollars, would have to pay (somehow) 50,000 or more in TAXES.”
        The FairTax does call for a sales tax on medical bills.  But, you are taking a worst case scenario and touting that as a reason for the whole program to be useless.  Guess what, your scenario actually is a symptom of another problem, affordable healthcare, not taxation.  I mean seriously, this guy making $20K and having $50K in taxes is actually getting that tax burden from $200K in ACTUAL medical bills, which he ALSO can’t afford, but somehow you don’t mention that part.

        Now if you want to make the argument that imposing the retail sales tax on medical costs should be taken out (and recapture that somewhere else), I’m all ears.  But please don’t make your case with the “grandma falling off the cliff” scenario crap.

        Moving on… you wrote: ” They have the government as ‘a taxable employer’  so your city, county and state, and federal government, has to pay a 23,000 for every 100,00o in wages, benefits, and PENSIONS.Yes  — its  a tax on PENSIONS,  Yes, its a tax on WAGES.  Yes, it’s a tax on BENEFITS.” 

        I have not seen this anywhere in the FairTax books or website.  FairTax calls for a retail sales tax and removes ALL other taxes, so why would any employer, including fed, local governments have to pay taxes on salaries?  I don’t understand this point.  Please show me where this is detailed in the FairTax documentation.  I also have not seen the info about how all local governments have to pay $300 B up front.  Is this to cover the prebate?

        And finally, I did a little research on your statement about Jorgenson.  You are actually mis-representing Jorgenson’s position.  Jorgenson did not expose the ENTIRE FairTax as a farce.  He did claim that Boortz and Linder (B&L) double-counted one of the tax savings claims. 

        In a nutshell: B&L claimed that employers/manufacturers would be able to reduce prices of goods since all the embedded taxes mfrs have to pay would be removed.  B&L also claimed that employees would receive 100% of their current gross income.  So, for example, let’s say a company makes hammers for $10, and pays its employee a gross salary of $1000.  The employee pays $200 in taxes for a take-home of $800.  B&L claimed that with FairTax, the mfr could reduce the hammer to $8 AND the employee would still receive $1000 in pay.

        Jorgenson’s position was that EITHER the mfr could reduce the hammer to $8 OR reduce the employee salary to $800, but not both.  Jorgenson was stating that B&L were taking the embedded tax reduction on both sides of the equation.

        Jorgenson is of course more of an authority on this than I am, but I didn’t see where he accounted for the additional taxes an employer pays on someone’s salary (payroll tax).  That employee that makes $1000 actually costs the mfr $1100 due to the payroll tax, which would be eliminated by FairTax.  So, I would think the employer could still pay the employee $1000, and use that $100 savings to bring the cost of the hammer down to $8.  But hey, I can only assume a Harvard economist has thought this through more than I have!

        Either way, my bottom line is that I am fine with keeping $1000 of my paycheck, and then paying $10 + 23% for the hammer.  The IMMENSE benefits of removing tax code class warfare from political platforms, and simplifying taxes for EVERYONE are just a huge step in the right direction.

        So, as of right now, I am still a fan of FairTax.

      • George

        Mark  I have indeed studied The  Fair Tax and although it is not perfect , there are quite a number of things I do like about it. I also have a number of complaints that I am totally against and DON’T like but the positive outweighs the negative. I cannot compare it to the present system in actuality because it hasn’t been put into practice . I have my own reason why I prefer it better but it does need indeed revisions. I would prefer it better than what we have currently ( with quite a number of modifications )  I have a friend  who is a former accountant who admitted most oppose it because it would put many tax /accounting services out of business.   And as far as you telling  me to pull my head out of my gullible backside , the only person gullible here is yourself.  I didn’t call you any  names  or make any peersonal attacks upon you and if you disagreed , you could have been civil about it instead of acting like a complete arrogant,  mean-spirited a**hole.  
         I have studied the Fair Tax , The  Flat Tax and our current system of taxation and when people sit with me and we discuss it , we at least know how to engage in civil discourse and exchange ideas which is something  YOU need to take a lesson in. 
                             The Fair Tax has not been tried yet so of course we don’t know the results of it’s effects .  If you had a different viewpoint regarding the Fair Tax or any other system of taxation , you could have simply stated your points tactfully instead of engaging in your conceited , ignorant, arrogant  and narcissistic demeanor on this discussion forum . By the way , just because YOU have a different perspective on this matter doesn’t necessarily make YOU  right .
                      If you had wanted to share your view on a different perspective on any other form of taxation system then you have the privildege to do so ,and I would be very open minded to listyen and take any and all viewpoints under advisement  but if you can’t do it without acting like a jerk about it then I have no conversation with you whatsoever. You don’t have to agree with anything posted here , and if you had presented compelling information to me and I reviewed it , I may have very much been accepting of your points ( possibly ). I NEVER claim to have all the answers, I only stated MY  reasons why I support such and if you perceived things differently , no one or nothing is hindering you , but if you can’t act civilized on a discussion forum without making personal ad hominem attacks upon people you disagree with then you are indeed showing your true colors and it’s a waste of my time even conversing with you. 

        • George

          Mark, I’m  replying to my own post in continuation.  If there were things about the Fair  Tax that I am not aware of and you have discovered that which  the majority of the public is not aware of then  I  would be the first jumping on board to support your presentation of such. But if you can’t make your point without  talking to me with a nasty and snobbish demeanor then I want NO discussion with you whatsoever Mark.  If everything you say is true , I will be the number one person out there supporting you and speaking out against any deception having been made. But if you’re gonna get hostile toward me and start attacking me because of my posted position then there will be no DIALOGUE —PERIOD !!!   If you can’t understand this , then YOU are the one being ignorant ( not me ).  I could be TOTALLY wrong about the Fair Tax or any other subject for that matter.  I cannot say definately for sure.   If you had simply stated how you discovered otherwise and simply stated your sources for verification , then I would have made an immediate refersal on my position.  Any rational, reasonable  and honest person would totally agree with this.

  • This article truly highlights one of my biggest gripes with the American people, and liberals especially.  Why can’t they understand that redistributing wealth hurts EVERYBODY!!!  I think I am going to lose it if I hear another Democrat say “The Repubs want to reduce spending on xyz while GIVING TAX CUTS TO THE RICH.”  I just want to reach through the screen and smack those people!

    What is the most mathematically “fair” tax system we could create?  (By this I mean fair INCOME tax.  I am a huge fan of the FairTax, which is even better.  But for the sake of this argument, the FairTax is irrellevant).  The easy answer to that is a flat percentage tax.  No matter what you make, you pay 15%.  That is mathematically fair.

    But, wisely enough, our government recognizes that this is a much heavier tax on poor people from a realistic sense, so we institute a progressive tax.  Poor people pay 10%, rich people pay 37% (or something like that), and others in between.  Now let’s say the taxes are reduced by 2%, so poor people pay 8% and rich people pay 35%.  Democrats use that as a talking point to claim “TAX CUTS TO THE RICH.”  That just sickens me.

    Why can’t the American populace see that even this is MORE than “fair,” in the favor of poor people?!?!?!  The so-called “rich” are already paying far more than their “fair share,” as Democrats like to call it.

    Of course, then Dems like to talk about all the loop holes for rich people.  The irony here is that Democrats are the first to cry foul when there is any attempt to actually make the system fair, because the poor people they have been scamming all this time would probably have to actually pay some taxes, and then they won’t vote for them.

    This is where the FairTax comes into play.  The more I read about FairTax, the more I think it should be the system we use.  All politcal pandering goes down the tubes and the American people get to have some control over how much tax they pay.  Not to mention all the tax loopholes are removed for EVERYBODY, which would be a great thing!  But Democrats are fighting this tooth and nail, since they claim it unfairly taxes the poor more heavily.  They are really only making this claim to hide the fact that they LOVE being able to play class warfare, because they have cornered the market on being the white knight that trots into town to save the “poor.”  And these “poor” people they claim to care so much about are a larger voting base than any other economic class, therefore protecting their political future, and making the LARGE voting poor ever more dependent on the government.

    This goes back to: why isn’t this obvious to the populace?  Nothing I have written here is difficult to understand.  It just takes a few moments of actual thought!

    • Parish – sorry — its true.   The GOP are for giving more and more lunatic tax breaks to the wealthy and very wealthy.

      We need an entirely new tax system — one without the BS crap about this kind of income doesnt pay, this kind of income pays a little, this kind of income pays a lot.

      Just call it all “income”   Screw calling some kind of income as this, some of kind of income as that.  However you want or can make your money – FINE.  

      The biggest con game for the last 50 years is the different classifications they give to income types.   And they always have some great excuse — very polished lies really — that this income or that income shouldn’t pay any taxes, or pay very little.

      Even now, there are con artist out there like Newt, Dick Army, FOX , Herman Cain, and others who want ONLY earned into to pay taxes.   Earned income ALREADY is screwed — right now, is screwed.   And these con artist want to screw earned income even more.   There is simply no end to the greed an distortions these guys use to excuse giving huge breaks to the very wealthy.

      SO just call income “INCOME”   Make it simple.  

      Most people are so easily fooled by the con artist. This “Fairtax” is an example of utter nonsense that has somehow been taken seriouisly by some.  

      Lets get a simple tax code that treats every one alike — no matter if they work for their money, or they have a small business, or they inherit it, or they find it, or they win a lottery, or they are self employed — WHATEVER.   Just tax everyone alike.

      Fewer that 5% of the people  have any clue what our tax code is really about.   It’s about defining one kind of income one way, and defining other types of income another way.

      Let the market decide how you make your money — not a loophole, not a lie, not a distortion by FOX or Newt or Cain.

      I don’t think that will happen, because people are such suckers for slick BS given by liars.

      • So is your solution to the taxing mess a flat tax?

  • George

    The perfect example of forced government regulation and stealing from those that  HAVE and giving to those that  HAVE NOT   is   OBAMACARE .  This wasn’t a matter of willful giving by the  American people . It was a goverment taxpayer HIJACK.  The losers in America will always mindlessly support Obama and his cronies.  There is rampant ignorance in this country. Obama is NOT for the USA.  Obama’s  policies are NOT in the best interest of the USA and/or the American people or our allies. Former President Ronald Reagan was right when he said ——- ” Government is not the solution ; government is the problem” .
         The unemployment rate has skyrocketed since Obama took office. Inflation has skyrocketed and we’re headed for more and more increased taxes , inflation and another Great Depression. Oh , but Obama promised CHANGE.  Sure, we got change alright——a CHANGE for the worse. We ended up with nothing but CHANGE left in our pockets. The brainwashed and mindless Obama supporters as well as people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are in my opinion pathetic and disgusting. Obama even appointed czars in his administration. Where do you think the term czar originated ? Where did you last hear the term czar ?  As I stated before , you can’t blame the stooges in Washington DC. We need to place an overwhelming amount of the blame on the hoodwinked and brainwashed voters and the public at large that fell for this political SHAM .
                         People don’t THINK  ( they only follow the crowd and jump on the popular bandwagon or associate and/or support those who promote their special interest group and their personal agendas  ) .    Just as we have religious and  philosophical  indoctrination , we also have political indoctrination as well. People in general embrace what is called “group think”  or ( support the group by any means necessary ).  According to this type of warped thinking , the ends justifies the means. It’s social “dog eat dog” and screw everbody else.  Have you heard the saying — ”  Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” ?  We’re witnessing it firsthand and feeling the sting of it’s effects.
                            People in our society have NOT been taught to think , analyze , investigate , ask questions, verify , demand proof or any substantiation.   People are like sheep ( aka- sheeple ) . People are easily manipulated ( aka -mind control ). The human mind is a marvelous  product of nature that can produce marvelous accomplishments but when our thinking is channeled in the wrong direction it becomes a tool of HORROR .  

    • George, the moment people are taught how to think, is the moment we get some kind of heath care for everyone.    How people call that evil is beyond me.    Funny how many of those people who don’t want to see others getting health care, often have health care FROM the government themselves.  

      Health care is not an easy question — mostly because there are issues which HAVE no answers.   For example, its a FACT that 10% of the population consume 50% of the health care.   And its a fact that the last year of life can take 500,000 dollars in health care.      If these two facts were erased, our health care cost would drop 65%.

      So it’s VERY VERY hard.   But your answer is like some guy who doesn’t bother to think, nor to respect the difficulty of the issue.  Your answer to to spew these half truths and cliches — and mostly to impress your buddies.

      Try to think the problem through — DO some of the thinking you seem to think you are so great at.   What you are great at is mouthing this nonsense and half truths that you heard from others.

      Funny how a guy who calls for thought, ask questions ect, is actually ignorant of the difficulty of the issue.   And because you don’t understand the issue, you have no chance of being right about the answer.

      • George

        Mark you just have proven what a complete hypocrite you are. You claim to be such a “know it all ” and anyone who doesn’t agree with Mark’s viewpoint is non thinking.  You need to start practicing what you preach for a change. 
                       I don’t know of anyone on this discussion forum who is against anyone obtaining healthcare.    No law prevents anyone from purchasing any form of health care and there are indeed a variety of plans and companies that offer plans even for low income people.  I am NOT obligated to pay for anyone else’s health expenses . Yes indeed we need to make changes to make health care affordable. Who would oppose tha ? I certainly don’t. So the person who is doing all the “mouthing off” is yourself.  You didn’t even have the decency to simply say  — ” I  disagree with your comment(s) for the following reason    ( fill in the blanks) and let’s discuss it civily like grown-up mature adults. Oh no, not you . You come onto this comment page making personal attacks toward anyone you disagree with.  Instead of you engaging in civil discourse , you engage in your  pathetic CYBERBULLYING instead of simply  presenting  your points for everyone to see and exchange thoughts on.
                             Funny how a guy like you who thinks he knows everything and only YOUR viewpoit matters has the unmitigated gall to make such accusations toward others.  I’m certainly not seeing rational THOUGHT coming from you but rather I see you engaging in the very ignorance you accuse others ( or in this case ME of ).  
                                 If  disagree with someone on this forum , just state your reasons and points and we all can give our reasons why we agree or disagreee. As for me , I will state in intricate detail why I accept what I do and point out my reasons in detail and let it be open for discussion.  But here you come onto this discussion forum when everyone was getting along fine ( even those who had disagreeable viewpoints  ) and you start attacking me with your bigoted propaganda.
                               If you had posted a messaage stating why you agree or disagree with a certain type of system , then feel free to , but if you have to act like such a jerk about it , rthen you are a waste of my time and everyone else. At least Pareshk knows how to be civil if he disagrees with another. Obviously  YOU need to follow suit !!!!!!

      • Mark, your response here is absolutely foolish.  First of all, your personal attacks on George make me wonder if you are actually a liberal troll, rather than an atheist conservative.  Not that I mind a liberal theist coming here and spouting their opinions – that would be great, actually, to debate openly with intelligent people.  But, that would require a lack of personal attacks, which you can’t seem to do.

        George and I have both been on this blog for many months and I think we both try to listen to others’ viewpoints.  He may be a tad on the aggressive side, but hey, passion towards our cause is a good thing!

        Mark wrote: “How people call that [healthcare for everyone] evil is beyond me.”

        This is just absurd.  I don’t think George, or anyone on this site, would say that healthcare for everyone is evil.  The problem we have is that to PROVIDE this healthcare, you MUST take money from those that earn it, and give it by LARGESSE to those that DO NOT earn it.  THAT IT WHAT IS EVIL.  This a a veiled method of income redistribution.  …yet another step towards socialism.  Did that really need to be spelled out for you?

        Oh, one more thing. Mark wrote: “George, the moment people are taught how to think, is the moment we get some kind of heath care for everyone.” What the heck are you even talking about here? This thinly veiled personal attack is in actuality so hollow and indefensible, you might as well have used the buzzwords “Hope” or “Change.” Please elaborate on you assertion.

        • George

          My sentiments exactly.  Mark is just indeed a liberal troll that came on here to disrupt and sabotage the civil discourse and tactful discussion forum. It is so obvious. These are the typical deceitful tactics of left wing liberals. Mark also never gave any proof or presented any verifiable substanciation of any of his claims but only spouted off the typical liberal left wing drivel.  If Mark can’t back up his claims and present factual and veriable data to back up what he says or name the sources of where he got his info then my suggestion to Mark is that he needs to crawl back into the cave of whence he came and simply  STFU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!