If that is the choice 30

At the request of our reader Frank, we post this video of Pat Condell speaking (inter alia) against Rick Perry because Perry believes in God and wants creationism taught in schools.

He is right that every politician in America has to be or seem to be religious. But since that is the case, should an atheist never vote at all, even if he likes everything else a candidate stands for?

We often agree with Pat Condell, but in this monologue we detect a whiff of the anti-Americanism which permeates Europe like a bad smell. We’d rather America was religious and free than atheist and collectivist – if that is the choice.

You cannot be a freethinker in an unfree land – or only in silence and fear.      

  • Harold

    This is going round in circles – you do not address the points I make, and you think I do not address the points you make.  One more go.
     
    The main point was whether the USA is at war with Islam.  This is what I disagree with – it seems you disagree with this also.   Our only disagreement with eachother  is whether this point of view was expressed here.  Saying that “we are not at war with Islam” is a lie,  is the same as saying  that we (the USA) *are* at war with Islam.  Saying “the enemy is Islam” is pretty much the same.  So the view that we are at war with Islam has been expressed here.  
     
    You say that those practicing the fundamentalist version of Islam are those carrying out the letter of the law – and thus they are the “true” followers” of islam.  The same could be said of Christianity and Judaism.  The fact is that very few people follow a fundamental interpretation of any of these.  However, of those that do, more of them are Muslim, and these Muslims are a greater threat than fundamentalist Christians or Jews at the moment.  That said, the “war” must be against fundamentalism and repression, wherever it is found, not against a particular religion.
     
    For the record, I have never “gone ballistic” when someone criticises terrorist acts.  I have not made excuses for the world wide terrorism in the name of Islam.  I think you must be getting me confused with someone else.

    • George

      Harold , one thing is for certain and that is  this is  indeed going around in circles.  And I  do not have you confused with anyone else . I am illustrating a very key perspective  that YOU still are evidently confused on.   Let’s back up here from the beginning, since you have a tendency to take everything  I say out of context. I’m trying to point out the obvious and not turn this simple illustration into a “pissing contest” or get into some nonsense “childish bickering dispute “.
                            Islam itself is NOT compatible with modern world society and it and it’s followers or (adherents ) have NOT conformed over time such as  that of other religions  ( in particular the other two Abrahamic religions  : namely Judism and Christianity ). I’ve said this before and you still don’t get it. Yes Christianity has horrific tennants and scriptures that teach murder, and fighting against non-believers in the Old Testament ) but the massive number of Christians in general worldwide ( with the exception of a handfull few ) have reformed themselves and DO NOT practice or embrace the teachings of their Old Testament scriptures .  I also DO NOT agree with Christianity as well.
                          Having said that , it isn’t Christians or Jews or any other religion but Islam whose followers are going around the world terrorizing people globally preaching a global takeover repleat with mass murder ( even genocide ) , “honor killings , terrorist training camps, death threats galore, and the horrific treatment of women——-the list is endless.     While I believe the other religious followers are nutty and a royal pain in the a** , I don’t worry about some global “Holy War ” being preached on a global basis by the adherents of any other religion ( and that includes Christians ). 
                          You still didn’t answer my question —-.   Why are you so silent when all throughout America the religious community ( primarily Christians ) spew out their venemous hatred and disdain toward atheists .  Atheists throughout America are scared to death to even reveal who they are and have to live their lives   “in the closet”   afraid to identify their true beliefs because of a religious saturated society that teaches the culture via their churches and the media and yet you have NO qualms toward that whatsoever.  No Harold, you’ve got it totally backwards ———it is YOU who have ME confused with someone else.  The attack upon us on September 11, 2001 was done in the name of Islam. The wars we are fighting overseas are against Muslim ( fundamentalists ) who have decided to wage war upon Western society and the world sending terrorist cells throughout other nations worldwide ( in the name of Islam )  and yet YOU are totally silent on that.  According to you and your mindset IMO — NO PROBLEM .
                       It is NOT a lie that this is a religious inspired and religion fueled worldwide dangerous terror movement ALL done in the name of Islam.
                             Furthermore I never said that ALL Muslims are engaged in such or teaching such.  You are so quick to come to the defense of these actions by Muslims and the global terrorist movement yet you continue to remain silent when we have people on a daily basis throughout America attacking atheists perpetually accusing atheists of being ALL communists, immoral, unpatriotic, anti-family,,,etc. and again , the list is endless. I  have yet to see the majority Muslims in America organize a Million Muslim March on Washington DC and openly and publicly on a wide scale basis denounce terrorism and sharia law . I have never implicated ALL Muslims yet you continue to try to paint this picture and nothing could be further from the truth .  The catalyst that is propelling this behavior is fundamentalist Islam —PERIOD !!  You are so quick to rant & rave as usual ad nauseum toward me for pointing this out yet you continue to downplay the threat that is real and this obviously means that you are in denial of the reality of what is truly happening throughout the world. If you can’t understand this then I am actually wasting my time trying to engage in dialogue with you as I may as well be talking to a brick wall.

      • Harold

        As an atheist, why do you think I am silent on the issue of persecution of atheists?  Where have I come to the defence of  the global terror movement?  This discussion happens to be about something else.  My point is that the fight is against persecution and oppression.  This includes the oppression of atheists such as myself.  It includes victims of terrorists.  It includes victims of so-called “honor killings”.  It includes all the things you object to.  I don’t understand where you get the idea that I support or condone any of that.  You and I are in agreement here.  The one point where we disagree is whether it is reasonable to say the fight is against Islam.  You have friends who are muslim, against whom you have no particular fight.  Of the 2 billion or so muslims in the world, quite a few must be like your friends.  Why alienate them by saying the fight is against Islam, when the fight is against violence, oppression and persecution?  Fighting Islam is just picking the wrong target.  Maybe you don’t think the fight is against Islam – but that opinion has been clearly expressed in this blog.

        • George

          Harold , you’re still missing the mark.    It is Islam that has not conformed or rather (  it’s adherents )  on the massive front like that of other religions.    You continue to paint the picture as if  I  ( or we ) on this blog are trying to say that all    ( or most  ) Muslims in general are in some form or another terrorists.  I have never stated, inferred, insinuated , implied, or even hinted at such.   So don’t even go there.      The war campaigns that we Americans are in right now in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are fueled and dictated by the very tennants of ISLAM  itself ( which hasn’t reformed ).     You continue to try to make it sound as if this  is just some renegade miniscule minority  of Muslims who have just           ” gone off the deep end ”  and are taking their own religion out of context or just hiding behind the name of Islam to engage in their terrorist actions.   Such is NOT the case and if anyone believes that then they are believing a LIE  and are fooling themselves !   There has to be a major REFORMATION within the religion itself before people worldwide begin to trust or accept that this isn’t a global threat ( which it definately is ).   People around the world are more and more coming to their senses and don’t see it happening ( at least certainly not anytime soon —that’s for sure ). You proclaim that you are an atheist yet  I don’t see you posting any comments on this website about the venemous hatred of atheists in general and how people have such disdain for atheists and atheism in general and blame atheists and atheism  ( or simply secular freethought ) for any and all immorality in our society )  but you go all out of your way to go on the defense of Islam ad nauseum.  Why is that Harold ?  Show me one post on here where you are displaying your defense of secular freethought  and secularists in general with the zeal that you show for defending a religion whose adherents ( not all but a significantly high percentile who do indeed pose a global threat upon the world ). There are indeed things that you and I agree upon but this is certainly NOT one of them . It appears to me as though YOU are trying to downplay , ignore or deny this massive global threat which is real  and is  being enacted every day.   If this horrific and barbaric savage behavior was going on massively by atheists then I would be doing an internal evaluation on my position or our position as freethinkers and search for a reason why and above all I would be out in the forefront denouncing it and encouraging others do do likewise on a widespread massive scale .  Got it ?

    • Jillian Becker

      Harold – 

      The the West IS fighting a war with Islam – one that Islam started – in two ways, one on battlefields with guns and drones etc., and one with words against the enemy’s appalling ideology. The Atheist Conservative has never advocated harming individual Muslims (unless they’re terrorists in which case we think they should be forcefully dealt with), but we’d like to see the elimination of Islam as an ideology, as a dreadful system of subjugation called sharia. We think it is essentially bad and wrong. If some people want to follow it as a religion without harming others, that would be okay. That is what we are duty bound to tolerate. But Islam is a Religion of War, a Religion of Conquest, and it’s hard to see how it can change and still be Islam.

      • Harold

        When did this wat start?

        • Jillian Becker

          Islam started its war of would-be world conquest in the seventh century. Muslims call it Jihad. 

          Islam’s direct violent attack on America took place on 9/11/2001. Or with its first attempt at bombing the World Trade Center in 1993, but that wasn’t recognized as part of the Jihad until later, in retrospect, after 9/11. Bush announced America’s engagement in the war when he announced the (badly named) ‘War on Terror” in response to 9/11.

  • Harold

    In reply to George  and Frank. George, you said “No one on this discussion forum has suggested or even insinuated anywhere about waging any war upon Muslims or Islam.”

    Yet from a post very recently (Obama exonerates etc) we have:

    Obama : “I’ve made it clear that the United States is not and never will be at war with Islam.”
     That is a lie…  The enemy is…Islam itself.”

    Well, if it is a lie that the USA is not at war with Islam, then it must be true that the USA IS at war with Islam.  It says clearly that the enemy is islam itself.  How can you say that no one here has even insinuated anywhere about waging war on Islam when it is said quite clearly.

    I had thought I had answered your question about my religion with the phrase “all religion is superstitious nonsense”, but if you want it plainer, I am not a muslim at all, nor have I ever been one.  But if I were this would be an ad hominem fallacy.

    Frank: I agree that all the things you describe are horrible and should be resisted.  I notice that you preface your remarks with “fundamentalist” Islam approves of.  You also say that the vast majority of Muslims support the actions listed.  I don’t believe that is true – certainly not in some cases.  You have an argument with fundamentalist or extreme Islam that I share.   There have been many comments in this blog saying that it is wrong to blame only the “extreme or fundamentalist” islam,  but all Islam is the same.  This is where we disagree.  I believe we need to”wage war” upon those parts where there is extreme harm,  and to fight Islam and Christianity and all religions in gentler ways where there is less harm. 

    • George

      Harold here you go again twisting things around to suit YOUR purposes.  It took three postings for you to simply acknowledge if you were or weren’t a Muslim which doesn’t matter to me anyway.   The fact still  remains that the ones who you call simply “extremists” or zealots are indeed the ones who are fundamentally practicing their beliefs to the very letter of the law. If you had been paying attention , I clearly stated that if Christians were to practice to the very letter of the law the teachings of the Old Testament , then even THEY would be engaging in the same behaviors. 
                              Furthermore Harold , why is it when atheists , agnostics, secular humanists , skeptics, and simply freethinkers are being attacked on a daily basis and subjected to the most vile hatred imaginable , you and your ilk are totally silent , yet you go “ballistic” if anyone makes any criticism regarding the actual terrorism that is being carried out in the name of Islam around the world ?  Explain that one .  You can’t and you won’t.
                          You go all out of your way  to make excuses for the world wide violent terrorism carried out in the name of Islam but then you rant & rave incessantly non-stop regarding those of us who point out the obvious. Your perpetual drivel on this is senseless . And for your information , yes I do indeed have Muslim friends and yes we are indeed the closest of friends. Even though I do not embreace their beliefs and they do not embrace mine, I have no hatred of them , nor do I wish any harm to come to either of them but the fact still remains and it is undeniable that the global jihadist movement is fueled by those who are indeed fundamentalists carrying out the very tennants of their belief-system (Islam ). How come you don’t have anything to say about the massive numbers of Muslims who say they  will dominate the world ?  Why are you silent on that ? 
                             No one on this website is preaching any “secular jihad”.  No one on this website is preaching any rhetoric to engage in any act of violence or terrorism toward anyone ( including Muslims ) and you need to stop trying to “paint that picture ” as if we are.  We are speaking out simply of what is indeed a world wide threat and a globally dangerous movement that is increasing daily. If you want to continue on with our head buried in the sand then go ahead —but count me out because I know better. You’re NOT facing reality and you’re continuing to make excuses for the inexcusable.

      • George

        The 3rd line from the bottom at the (above post )  should read —- “continue on with YOUR head” .

  • Liz

    I love Pat Condell, and I agree with him on this except for one point – when it comes time to vote I will vote for whoever is running against Obama, religious nutcase or not.  We can resume the battle for free thought after we save the country from ecomomic destruction. As Jillian points out, we are better off religious and free than atheist and collectivist. If a “Christian taliban” tries to take over, they will have to fight against their own Constitution, which will be difficult.
    As for the argument about whether we are fighting Islam, or just extremists, its been pointed out before that the only thing that has made Christianity and Judaism “civilized” has been the influence of Reason – rational, enlightened, scientific thought – which managed to raise even our religious nation to a civilized level. Muslims as a whole have not had that civilizing influence, and are therefore at a primitive, barbaric level of mental developement that the rest of the world left behind a long time ago. Thats why even the ones who don’t commit violence still don’t see anything wrong with what the violent ones want to acheive – totalitarian control via sharia law. So in a way we are against both the violent AND the nonviolent versions of Islam, as long as they believe that their religious laws should take precedence over the laws of our land.   

    • George

      My sentiments exactly Liz.    You’re right on target !

  • George

    Frank , your post a moment ago in reply to Harold was right on the money.  But he still won’t get it or admit it .  High FIVE  !!!!

  • Harold

    You want to live in a free land, but also want to wage war on Islam.  In your version of the USA  one would not be free to be a muslim.

    You disagree with Christians and other religionists on the issue of religion, but do not want a war on religion – only Islam.  What form should this war take against USA citizens who are muslims?  Or even non citizens?

    • George

      Harold lets get something straight once and for all. No one here on this discussion forum is suggesting any waging war upon any Muslims.  I personally have Muslim friends and I do not embrace THEIR religious belief system just as they do not embrace MY  secular beliefs.  However it is a fact as stated before that everwhere you go  around the world it is Muslims who can’t get along with their neighbors or try to assimilate into the already established national society. As the old saying goes—” When in Rome do as the Romans do “.
                          I don’t see you and your ilk complaining how Muslim theocracies around the world forbid the building of  Chritian churches,  Jewish synagogues, Buddhist temples , etc .  or allow even Christians to bring their Bibles into their countries. When our troops  were in Saudi Arabia during Operation Dessert Storm , the Saudi government forbade American Christian troops to even bring their Bibles into the country even though these same troops were there fighting for and defending the Saudis and risking and losing their lives in the Middle East.  Where was your public outcry. Tell me something Harold and this is just a question. Are you and American Muslim or simply a Muslim ?  ? If so , then fine , if you aren’t doing anything wrong then that’s your right but the fact still remains that all over the world it is Muslims that are on a worldwide jihad to kill the “infidels” ( and NO , not all Muslims , but the religion itself teaches such ). .      Sunday September 11, 2011 was a day in memory of the worst terrorist attack upon America and was actually a war waged against  American citizens and upon our nation by Muslim hijackers done so in the name of Islam . I didn’t see any Muslims anywhere in America gathering together to denounce terrorism . I didn’t see any Muslim marches or public demonstrations with shouts of  ” Say No To Terrorism “. Oh no , but here you come along on this website with your constant whining as if people are suggesting some kind of war to be waged upon Muslims which is utter bulls*** ! 
                          If a person is a Muslim and are citizens of this country and obey the laws of this land , and fit it in with our American culture and way of life then fine —–no problem . They have every legal right to as an American citizen.    The fact sill remains that we have terrorist training camps right here in America , terrorist cells right here in America and mass murder being carried out by Muslims around the world . We had Major . Hasan at Ft. Hood and a few botched attacks in New  York, there was the bomb in the truck at the World Trade  Center years before the 9/11 attack ,  the Somalia “crotch bomber ” who was arrested and stated to the effect that  he lied about supporting  America because he regarded us as his enemy——-the list is endless.
                        We have Muslim women refusing to take off their veil to get their driver license photo, on their license.  How stupid !   A photo on a license is for identification purposes . How can anyone identify the individual if they are wearing a veil covering their face with mere eye slits exposed ?  For crying out loud , let’s use some common sense here.
                              I don’t see you speaking out against the horrific acts perpetrated constantly worldwide by Muslims  but as soon as we point these things out , here you come on here with yopur false accusations acting as if someone on here is preaching some kind of war against Muslims which is simply not true and you know it. Who do you think you’re fooling. Even if I disagree with a person’s beliefs as long as those individuals are law abiding , civil , and decent people who leave other aloone then so be it —-no problem as far as I am concerned.  Your diatribe smacks of hypocrisy and a double-standard and you need to stop “p[ainting this false picture” trying to infer that we have some agenda waging war upon Muslims which is pure nonsense.     Every incident we speak of on this blog  regarding the massive acts of violence , terror and murder by Muslims  is true , subtantiated, proven and verified. If you can’t face that then you can’t handle the truth. Spare us with your bullcrap !!!!!!!!

      • Harold

        I deplore the restrictive regimes imposed by Islamic clerics and Governments.  I deplore terrorists and all their ilk.  I find the theocracies abhorent.  I have little agreement with anyone who wants to run things according to the latest interpretation of some magic book or other.  All religion is superstitious nonsense.   What I am complaining about is the rhetoric of waging a war against Islam.  I hate restrictions of freedom in the name of any religion or none.  All of the examples you state should be fought against.  Many are done in the name of Islam.  However, religions are not fixed or monolithic – just as Christianity has had pretty bad examples in the past (and present).  You seem to concede that Islam is OK as long as the muslims do not infringe the rules.  Therefore you do not wish to wage war on Islam, but on those expressions of Islam that  are abhorent and restrict the freedoms of others.  You therefore seem to agree that the USA is not at war with Islam, only certain expressions of it.

        Your interpretation of Islam is as an irrevocably violent and extreme way of life – yet you know and like muslims.  If Islam is so incontravertably bad, how can this be?  The fact is that Isam is not incompatible with a peaceful and tolerant way of life. 

        Lets get it straight – the war should be against terrorism and repression.  To call it against Islam is unhelpful.

        • George

          Harold , here again  YOU are putting words in my mouth  and you are stating things that I never inferred.     Secondly , you never answered my question. Are you an American Muslim or simply a Muslim of elsewhere ?   These terrorist acts are indeed being carried out in the name of Islam and it is being preached around the world vehemently. Look at the latest post article about the 9/11 commemoration in London just posted on this blog with Muslims holding signs  stating — ” Islam will dominate the world ” and burning American flags.     I don’t see Americans here in the USA going around burning flags of Muslim nations .  I haven’t  seen you and your ilk denounce any of this but here you are being so quick to rant &  rave about me pointing out the obvious that is occurring every day.
                          No one on this discussion forum has suggessted or even insinuated anywhere about waging any war upon Muslims or Islam but  YOU are the one who “read” into that something which  wasn’t there .  On September 11, 2001  when I saw the video footage of the twin towers falling and the planes colliding , the plane crash in Pennsylvania and the impact crash into the Pentagon , I also watched video footage of Muslims around the world ( especially in Muslim theocratic nations ) cheering and dancing in the streets with joy.   Where was your public outcry regarding that ? Where was your public denunciation regarding that ?  If  Christians were to fundamentally practice what is in the Old  Testament of their Bible , then they too would be engaging in acts of horror , terror and mass murder , but the Christians for the most part have reformed their behavior on a world wide scale and are not going around globally preaching Christian jihad even though there ae a number of missionaries  proselytizing , etc and a handfull of extremists here and there.
                                    Furthermore I don’t see any Christian , Jewish, Buddhist , Atheist, Secular humanist , Scientologist terrorist training camos in ANY Muslim country anywhere . We  have the head of Iran stating he want’s to destroy Israel and you seem IMO to have no problem with that or rather you don’t state such.   If people around the world have a “phobia” of this global jihadist movement then their fears are indeed justified and you are therefore IMO an “apologist” making excuses for the clear and obvious.  There is NOT a single person on this blog that has ever suggested any harm come to any Muslim anywhere , so don’t even go there and try to infer such because you know that is utter rubbish. You may fool others with your rhetoric but you don’t fool me and I’m not buying it and you know for a fact that I’m telling the truth which you adamantly don’t want to admit.

        • Frank

          Harold,
          Fundamentalist Islam approves of the following actions:
          Treating women like slaves and making them dress in tents.
          Forcing young girls to undergo genital mutilation.
          Rioting and killing people because of some cartoons.
          Murdering Theo VanGogh over a movie.
          Threatening to murder Geert Wilders over a video.
          Fathers murdering daughters in so called “honor killings.”
          Brothers murdering sisters in so called “honor killings.”
          Denying citizenship to non-Muslims (Maldives).
          Threatening violence over a proposed romance novel.
          Denying freedom of worship to non-Muslims.
          Death threats to Salmon Rushdie over the “Satanic Verses.”
          Murdering U.N. workers because someone burned a book.
          Calling for the complete destruction of Israel.
          Murdering apostates as Mohammed instructed.
          Murdering homosexuals.
          Men in their fifties marrying pre-teen girls as Mohammed did.

          I could go on, but you get the idea. The vast majority of Muslims and Islamic governments support the actions listed above. And a microscopic minority of “civilized” Muslims does not change that fact.

          Fundamentalist Islam is responsible for lethal attacks on innocent people in countries around the world. And you have the gall to accuse us of intolerance when we point out these atrocites and our opposition to this vile belief system?! You can’t be serious!

  • Anonymous

    Good post. 

    European condescension toward America is equally as abhorrent to free thinkers in America as isslamm’s mindless hatred of infidels.  They both suck.

    I don’t wish any evil on the Europeans, but their foolish liberal values have allowed them to warmly embrace the very same musslimms that would like to slit their throats.  How stupid is that??

    • George

      That’s exactly what I have been saying all along cheongyei and you hit the nail on the head .  I feel ya bro !

  • George

    Personally I consider  the christians as  an annoying pain in the a** , but  I don’t see christians intending on rounding non-christians up and slaughtering them because they ( or we )  refuse to accept christianity.  There are horrific  scriptures in the old testament of the bible like that which is contained in the koran yet overwhelmingly christians have reformed their behavior but the fundamentalists still engage in aggressive proselytizing.  Muslims on the other hand have a world wide agenda on a large percentile basis of their adherents who want to convert the world by force , threats, violence, terror and murder.  While I will acknowledge that not all muslims are not going around engaging in terrorism and murder , the fact still remains that the belief system itself is not compatible with a civilized advanced society of freedom justice and equality and tolerance for others.   To the muslims it’s convert or die. Both beliefs  ( christianity and islam ) are that of superstition , mythology, and proselytizing but muslims are the primary religious group that pose as a clear and present threat and danger around the world. I’ve lived all my life in a predominant christianized saturated society and even though the christian zealots are a nuissance ,  if I had to choose  , I would rather put up with them than the Muslims any day.  I actually don’t care for either .  That’s just my personal view and opinion and anyone else is entitled to theirs. 

    • Frank

      George,
      There is no doubt that Muslims are a bigger threat to life and limb than Christians have been for a very long time. But some Christians still kill doctors and gay people while others still approve of those actions. Currently it is the Christians in America who pose the biggest threat to fundamental freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. We’ve already started down the slippery slope by allowing them to insert god in the pledge and in our national motto. By appointing Christer judges to the federal bench and the Supreme Court they will be laying the ground work to impose Christian values on everyone. As Pat Condell said, “Obama or Jesus it’s the choice from hell.” This is why I am adamantly opposed to not only Perry but also Bachmann and Santorum.

      • George

        Frank , I also oppose the same as yourself and I don’t want either . My point was simply that on a one on one basis  and it became a “toss up ” I would tip the scale of living among the bible-chumpers than the jihadists IF it came as a choice between the two.   As I stated before I actually do NOT want or prefer either.  I want NOTHING to do with anyone’s religion ( Christian , Muslim, Jewish , Scientologist, Wiccan, Buddhist , Hindu , and so on and so forth ) ——————-NONE of them  —-PERIOD !!!!!      As I stated before I have NOT decided who I will vote for because  I’m getting more and more info on each potential candidate every day . I don’t want to end up “flip-flopping”  back & forth because I keep getting new “dirt” on a particular candidate or I find out something about one that I didn’t know before . So there fore I will do the prudent thing and wait and analyze  the whole assessment to make a wise and informed decision and not “jump the gun” so to speak.  Just as yourself , I want none of these superstitious individuals in public office but the reality still remains that we have to make a choice and NO atheist  is running so we will have to decide who to vote for or NOT vote at all. I understand your sentiments on this Frank and your feelings on this matter and it does indeed put us in a precarious predicament . I will not pretend that I have the answer because I don’t and I’m being totally honest here . I’m simply “weighing”  the situation and will make my decision later .   As for now , I’m not going to “jump the gun ”   or  let my feelings rule but I am trying to get as much info from all sides to see what is what. I respect your insight on this and as well as others on this discussion forum . We all have our various viewpoints based upon our individual perceptions on this matter and  I’m going to let it be at that.

    • Anonymous

      Good point, George!

      I think the dangers posed by isslamm’s mindless zealotry and infinitely intransigent intolerance are vastly more daunting than those that today’s evangelical christians present. 

      While they are all whack jobs, and the evangelicals are deeply disturbed overall, they and the musslimms are really birds of a mindless feather, both claiming descendency from the wanna-be child-killing so-called ‘prophet’ Abraham, with the isslammist branch of that tree of perverted fruit being much more poisonous. 

      Most of today’s christians can laugh at themselves and would not kill over a cartoon of their god and savior, whereas hundreds of imams will happily issue fatwahs and threaten the life of anyone not buying their BS lock, stock and barrell.

      • George

        Exactly my point indeed cheongyei.   I would love to buy you a steak dinner on that one.    Ha ha ! 

      • Jillian Becker

        As I have written elsewhere in answer to one of your comments, cheongyei, the legendary Abraham is precisely NOT “a wanna-be child killer”. The point of the myth of Abraham and Isaac is that the new religion was AGAINST human sacrifice. 

        I appreciate your comments and agree generally with your point of view. 

        One other thing: the Muslims have a crazy version of the Jewish bible. Did you know – by way of just one example – they say “Jesus’s mother Mary” was the sister of “Moses”? 

        The vengeful god of the Jews, the “father” god – or the whole cumbersome triune  god – of the Christians, and the lustful, sadistic allah of Islam have nothing in common with each other except their god status. 

        Mankind needs to grow out of all of them.  

        • George

          Yep ————–all three of the Abrahamic religions come from the wacky mold together.  All proclaim to believe in the same deity but have issues with the “prophets” .   As I was pointing out previously I would feel a tad safer around the nutty Christians in America than the mass murdering Muslims  .     You’re right Jillian in that all three beliefs are enshrouded in superstitious and horrendous behaviors and mindsets  yet all three proclaim that they are so righteous and moral and  honorable.  I’m so fed up with religion in general and yet these brainwashed “human puppets” have the unmitigated gall to look down upon us with such disdain.
                                When I hear these fundamentalists or religionists in general quote verses from their so-called “Holy” books , I tell them that their books were written ages ago during an era in time when nearly all ( with exception of a tiny few ) believed that the earth was flat,  believed in sorcery , witches, demons, spirit monsters , black magic, and other superstitious and mythological rubbish and yet today these modern day theologians still embrace ancient fairey tale folklore  as if it’s proven facts .   Every hate-mongering racist attack  I’ve experienced has come from the most hardcore religious zealot yet these same individuals go to their houses of worship and proclaim that we are all created equal and yet as soon as these scoundrels walk out of their houses of worship they turn into the most staunch purveyors of bigotry and hate imaginable. Even while in their houses of worship they are hypocrites. 
                               I’ve been encouraging more and more of my secular associates to check out this website but the problem is Jillian they are so liberal ( although atheists ) that they  probably hate me more than the religious kooks because  I”m conservative and secular and worse of all to them — I’m ” politically incorrect ” .   I totally agree with your statement that mankind needs to grow out of all of them but the harsh reality Jillian is that it definately won’t be anytime soon or even in our lifetime.  How sad !

  • Frank

    Thanks Jillian for posting this. I would like to point out that you would be no more free under a Christian Taliban than you would be under Socialism.

    • Jillian Becker

      There’s no danger that I can see of a Christian Taliban coming to power.

      • George

        Hey Jillian  , I still love this guy Pat Condell.   Perhaps we all can encourage HIM to run for president. Now that’s a thought . Just think Jillian , Pat Condell –member of the Freethinkers Party.  Yeah —that should do it .    Imagine people talking about President Condell.   It’s just one thing  that puzzles me Jillian ——- when he swears in , does he put his hand on the ” Book of Science ”  or on  ” The Book of Encyclopedias ” ?  Ha ha ha   (snicker )   !!!!!