Science at war with religion 36

Professor Herman Philipse, of the University of Utrecht, talks in this video about Science versus Religion.

We don’t agree with everything he says – eg. his accusation that the US is putting Holland under water –  and we think he takes rather too pedantically, professorially, seriously the manifestly absurd claims of religion, such as the veracity of revelation and the efficacy of prayer, even though he does so in order to demolish them.

Also he uses up too much of his time before reaching the main theme of his address, science warring with religion. Try starting at about the 10 minutes mark.

But his conclusion is that atheism and not agnosticism is the right response to the failure of religion’s arguments, and that’s why we like his address enough to post it.

Posted under Christianity, Commentary, Religion general, Science by Jillian Becker on Sunday, October 30, 2011

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This post has 36 comments.

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  • George

    In response to Harold. I agree with your assertion  Harold , and I do NOT mean to get bogged down in semantics.      My point was simply that as far as where life comes from , or where matter comes from or where did it all begin ( if there was a starting point ) WE DO NOT KNOW , and this in itself is  a FACT. I get your point such as the “flat earth theory” or      [  “the theory of gravity ” which is NOW proven to be factual    ]   , however when that term originated at the very onset it was ONLY a theory but the terminology NEVER changed even while later it was indeed proven to be factual—— . I can give various definitions from different dictionaries and philosophical quotations on the term ( as far as defining the terminology itself is concerned ) and  I expected a comment on that aspect and we are on the same page here ,  and  so in addressing my original  premise in that as far as how we got here or where did everything come from—— we are STILL in the theoretical stage of presumptive analysis and as far as our origin ( if there was one , and I am not one to say )  we DO NOT know the facts on this question  and I will be the first one to concede that we simply DO NOT KNOW.

    • Harold

      Hi George, I was not intending to disagree with you on this one.  Creationists often critisize evolution as “only a theory”.  This is annoying, because in the scientific sense, a theory is a well tested, widely accepted and demonstrably useful thing.   Science very rarely talks about “fact”, and theories are the next most certain thing.   Theories are often dismissed as though they are mere hypotheses.  It is  a semantic argument, but I think it is quite significant in these discussions. 

      • George

        I understand your point Harold  and I never interpreted it otherwise.     During my life in various science studies , I have personally read or heard of scientists explicitly exclaim that “such & such ” is definately the case and state that they have scientific studies to back it up only to come along many years later and refute their own previous claims. Moving beyond semantics , but regarding the scientists themselves , the very ones who staunchly made their scientific assertion , later changed and admitted that they were wrong . By the same token , I have seen scientist colleagues argue over the same scientific THEORY or for that matter the same scientific hypothesis and what was once even accepted as scientific fact is NOW regarded as as an old adage with NEW discovery indicating otherwise.  This is why I have always kept a skeptical [ open avenue ] in my outlook on even  “scientific” assertions ——– and even question and further explore the assertions of scientists themselves.    Just my personal POV.

  • Ralph

    Could it be that what physics calls “nothing”  is actually “something” that we don’t understand yet?

    • George

      That’s exactly what I just posted a few moments ago previous to your post Ralph.   We were thinking the same thing.  Check out my previous post regarding the scientist explanation I mentioned.    Something doesn’t come out of nothing.   I’ve been reading more and more that scientists  just as before say that matter has ALWAYS existed and ALWAYS will exist and that it never came into being from nowhere and will never be taken out of being but only has changed it’s properties and composition.  When one thinks about all the eternity of time in the past , that’s an awfully long time for matter to evolve into a mechanical intelligence life form to a further bilogical intelligence life form and then eventually to our current form.    Matter has ALWAYS been evolving and changing and subsequently formed into what we experience to this date from all the eternity of past milennia and constant changing.       I was listening to one scientist on a radio program and he said we are still at a class one civilization and there is evidence that there have been even class two  or three civilizations in the past that are no longer here and possibly even exist at some distant astronomical galaxie and they may have abandoned us or care nothing of us and look upon us with the same mentality that we look upon fleas ( as mere pests or sub-evolved species ).  This is still in my view conjecture  although he also pointed out that there is SOME evidence to support this belief. I personally don’t know and I would have given anything to have been able to have audio recorded the show.  
                             This may even sound rather far fetched , yet think about what people would have said during the  Dark Ages if someone had mentioned that we would be talking today on cell phones, watching TV,  flying  around on jet planes , driving automomobiles, and cooking using microwave ovens , etc.    They  would have probably locked us up for being loonies or had us executed for being some kind of possesed demons or something. Now it’s a reality !

      • Liz

        I tend to agree with the theory that there has never been “nothing”; there has always been matter existing in some form or other, since matter cannot be created or destroyed. 
        It’s not any less believable that everything exists without having been created than to believe that it was all created by a “god” that existed for eternity before that (without having been created).   

        • George

          Those are my sentiments exactly Liz.  Thank you maam  !

  • Don L

    George, have you watched the Hawking video(s)?  Much of what you are discussing he addresses.  Indeed, he provides evidence that we in fact came from nothing and that the proof that there is no god is that there was no time for a god…in any universe. 

    His video (actually his statement) provides demonstrable/repeatable/irrefutable proof…it destroys the theists ultimate dodge question: “Oh yeah, then how’d we get here?”  If you haven’t watched it…it’ll blow your mind:  1) the world’s leading scientist comes out in public and proves, applied scientific method,that there is not even the slightest possibility of a god; and, 2) a major cable network aired it!

    • George

      I agree with all that Don and I see no dispute anywhere !

  • George

    In spite of how many scientists agree with a large number of their fellow colleagues as Don put it , the fact still remains that regarding the Big Bang Theory , it is still a theory nevertheless and has not been proven conclusively.  Just as Paresh K has stated —we just DON’T know factually.   If  it was indeed factually PROVEN , then it wouldn’t be called the Big  Bang THEORY but rather The  Big Bang FACT.   This is how the Christian fundies formulate their argument by saying —-if there was a big bang then there must have been someone (GOD ) to light the fuse and set it off and here we go again with the  FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT     and another circular reasoning debate.
                             Even if there was a Big Bang as many scientists  have asserted , this still doesn’t answer the question of —  Where did matter come from ? Where did life come from ? What made life from non-life ? Did matter and life always exist ?  If so , how ?  If it didn’t , then also —how do we know ?  Has life and non-living matter existed for all of eternity in the past and will it continue for all of eternity in the future still ?      When I hear atheists say that because certain significant numbers of well known scientists agree with the big bang theory or that a large number of scientists agree on a particular question on our existence , it  still does not answer the questions or provide conclusive proof to the question itself.  Proof does not require the signatures of a lot of scientific [ scientist ] votes to be considered factually accepted and without doubt.   Skeptism does indeed provide for an open mind and a challenge to what is popularily accepted as factual.  Keith raised some very interesting points.  I attended one atheist conference on this subject and half of the attendees  agreed on the big bang and the other half didn’t and then it became actually a hostile confrontation and I walked out and never attended another such conference [ this from the very people who proclaim to be so rational and reasonable ].  They acted like squabbling little children and  I was shocked and appalled at their conduct ( and these were all atheists  ).  
                     When I attended another conference , the subject came up and one gentleman stated thet the Big bang theory was never meant to answer the question of where we  came from or how we originated but how we evolved . Ok , then —we’re trying to compare apples to oranges and the debate is operating on two different planes.    One being about ORIGIN and the other about what and how we evolved from a certain point into what we now currently are.  As Robert G. Ingersol pointed out —the religionists (theists) see design in everything. If there was a designer , then where did the designer come from ? Who created the designer (god or deity ) ?  If a supernatural being created all in existence from matter , then where did the deity get the matter ?  If Christians say that GOD created himself then that is an imposibility because if you don’t’  exist to beging with , you can’t do any creating. If you already exist , then there is no need to create yourself becasue you are already in existence but it still doesn’t answer where the being came from. If there was no matter to begin with then how can any being produce matter  ( a positive substance that has weight and occupies space ) out of a vacuum of nothingness or empty void of space ? 
                            Christians say that GOD sees , hears, and knows all—even before they  pray. If that’s true as they proclaim, then —why pray ? Isn’t that being redundant ?   If this deity (GOD ) knows what people are in need of from the very start , then why doesn’t this supposedly beneficent , loving and caring GOD simply do the godly thing and give people what he/she/it knows people are in need of instead of forcing people to get down on their knees and beg , grovel and humiliate themselves pleading for help, assistance and life saving ?  Christians refer to GOD as  “HE” — such as  he hears, he sees, he knows , he loves, he forgives, etc. The term “HE” is a personal pronoun that denotes the male gender or a man or boy. If GOD is an invisible  formless and immaterial spirit that no one can describe, explain, or even define then how would one know what gender HE/SHE/IT  is ?   Robert G. Ingersoll stated — ”  I wouldn’t know a GOD if I saw one ” .   And neither would any Christian. wait a minute —according to Christians GOD is invisible and formless so go figure.   Does the use of the term “HE” mean that GOD has an invisible penis, and invisible  adams  apple , invisible large muscles, invisible beard, invisible mustache, invisible —well you get the idea .   No one has died and come back with a recorded video to tell and show the world that there is a heaven or hell but people believe this blindly by indoctrinated dogmatic teachings or BLIND ACCEPTANCE called FAITH . 

                         NO one knows what is beyond the grave . No one was around billions or trillions of light years ago to say what did or didn’t happen ( not even scientists ).   There are no scientific instruments that can calcuilate what happened trillions of light years ago. No scientists were around then and certainly no Jesus or other religious figure was around then as well.  Scientists track our Solar system path ad our universe and many of their own hypothesis conclusions have been questioned by other scientists and even they are not ceratin and this is why they still use the term THEORY –even for the Big Bang belief . religious people such as Christians simply believe as part of their indoctrinated dogma without question as part of their cultural theological mental programming. Also, as I have stated before , just because massive numbers of people believe something doesn’t necessarily make them right.  There was a ime when around 99.99% of the people on our planet believed in the FLAT EARTH THEORY.  It was later proven that the tiny minority of skeptics (scientific minded people )  were the ones proven to be right after all.  Remember the  Catholic  church wanted  Galieo  dead for teaching that the earth was NOT the center of our Solar system or universe. The catholic church reluctantly in recent times had to acknowledge that Galieo was right after all.

                None of us factually KNOW where and how matter exists .  None of us factually KNOW where life comes from and how it exists ? We can theorize until the cows come home but the fact still remains that WE DO NOT KNOW !   How can a spirit being control a material universe ?  Is the spirit independent of the material ?   If so , then how can a spirit being judge a material non-spirit people ?  It takes one like us to judge us –since  to be fair we must be judged by one of our peers.   Christians say that GOD created us in his image . If that were true then we would be invisible spirit people .  I am the image of a man , not the image of some   invisible  ” space spook “——— no jokes please  Don L   ( I saw it coming—ha ha ).    I am inclined to go along with the time-space continuum theory to a large degree and I even have questions regarding that as well. 
                            The Big Bang suggests that at some time in the far distant past  a a mega- suiper nova like explosion occurred which sent the planets , stars and other astronolical bodies to be flung far out into the vastnes sof space form a centralized point in space and to time.      What make the explosion occur ? did it happen by a mixture of various gases that came into contacvt with an astronomical  catalyst that made the explosion happen.  How did this formulate to begin with ?  Christians say that GOD is in control. That’s not control but rather a lack of control.  There is no such thing as the universal order of things considering that our universe is NOT in any order whatsoever but rather a chaotic mass of astronomical bodies crashing into other bodies, and we have meteors, asteroids , space dust and more and our orbits are not the same pattern but fluuate and even scientists say that our planet earth does not rotate on it’s axis in a perfect spin but has quite a wabble to it but because it is so slow we don’t notice it.  Some scientists say that our earth is actually more of a slight pear shape than truly spherical. The question can also be  asked — Why are we here ?  What’s the purpose of life ?    Many people have their own personal theories and yet they are still  ALL theories just the same.   When a person asked the great philosopher and secular freethinker –Robert Green Ingersoll  :  Where did we come from ?   Ingersoll paused for a moment and replied ——-  ” I don’t know ” .

    • Liz

      Yes, I think it’s obvious that all solar systems, galaxies, stars, etc, start with a big bang – we have observable proof of that. But you’re gentleman was right – that doesn’t prove that nothing existed before that, and shouldn’t be used as an explanation of the origin of all existence.
      As to the question “Why are we here?”- at least Robert I. gave an honest answer, which is more than you can say for the religious.  They are willing to settle for a story rather than consider scientific facts, just as they would rather work up a phony sense of awe toward an imaginary being than actually experience the awe and majesty of universe simply by looking through a telescope!

  • Don L

    I certainly appreciate the thoughts you all share, however, when the subject is science, cosmology and physics…I trust reknown experts on the subject.  And, the world’s leading expert in these areas (something from nothing, Big Bang THEORY, etceteras) is Stephen Hawking.  Here again is his take on science and god: http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/did-god-create-the-universe-videos

    • Don L

      renown

      • I hear you.  To be honest, I haven’t researched this issue enough to know where it stands exactly today.  My understanding though was that the “proof” is still being developed.  (I think I read a quote from Richard Dawkins about this).  Many times, when I do research this stuff, it is a bit over my head, and I end up losing the main point anyway.  I am happy to leave this type of work to the brainiacs and I will try to learn what I can when they have “resolved” the issue (to the extent that there is no – or very little – doubt).

        • George

          No problem with the double-post as it’s happened to me as well.  No biggie . I’m NOT any denier as well and I’m only saying that the assertions made may indeed have some merit to them ( I don’t know and I’m being totally honest here ).  I’m not saying definately I know for certain one way or the other —– I am saying that I will be open for discussion and I will continue to research later to learn more —that’s all and that’s my honest position. I welcome all inputs on the matter as I continue to learn and gather information on the subject. 

      • George

        I heard the God in foxhole crap many times Don. Or rather they claim that no atheists are in foxholes and that has been proven many times to be a lie.   As you said, tell that to the praying soilder that got blown away who was praying his a**off ! I told one Christian who handed me this BS that if he truly believbed that GOD would protect him and our nation , then we wouldn’t need a military or arms ——– all we would have to do is drop to our knees and put our hands together and pray and the Super Sky  Daddy would  use his magical godly powers to wipe our enemies out in the blinking of an eye.   What a bunch of theological BULLSH**   !!!!!!!!!!

    • I hear you Don.  To be honest, I haven’t done a whole lot of research on this.  My understanding, according to a Richard Dawkins quote I read, was that the scientists “are not quite there” when it comes to proving the origins of life and the universe.  Most of the time when I do read about it, it ends up being a bit over my head, so I am happy to operate under the assumption that “we think we have some strong cases, but we can’t definitively prove it yet.”  That suits me just fine.

      I am not a big bang theory “denier,” I am just far from being able to defend the theory’s merits to theists (or anyone for that matter).

      My big issue is with those that use this position (conclusive proof does not exist) to validate their belief in god, which is pure logical fallacy.

      • Crap – sorry for the double-post.  I didn’t see my original so I thought I forgot to submit it!

        • Don L

          Hey…LOL…cut it out why doncha!

          If you get a chance PareshK…check out the Hawking videos…

          Now, when any theist pushes the “how’d we get here question…I just tell ‘m from nothinh and there jsy isn’t any time for gods.   Watch the vids you’ll get it.

          Later.

      • I watched two of the vids, and the one about the subatomic particles appearing, disappearing, and then reappearing somewhere else was interesting.  I don’t know if it necessarily proves to me the origins of the universe, but I guess I shouldn’t just give up after only watching a 2 min video!  🙂
         
        Bringing this info to a theist is futile though, as I’m sure you are aware.  Like I said in another post, I got into a good discussion with a few of them over at Townhall.com, and it is just astonishing how they think.  There really is nothing you can do to convince them.  They have “Faith” and that’s all that matters to them.  It’s really strange because a lot of times, they don’t sound all that different from jihadis.  It’s really interesting to me when they expose their thought processes in debate.

        • Don L

          If said it before and I’ll say it again…You cannot attempt to be rational with those that hld irrational beliefs.  I don’t remeber if it was you or some other who mentioned Dawkins book?  His idea of the god gene as a survival whatchmacallit is about the only sane thing I’ve ever heard to explain how people who are normaly viable become lunatics when god is the topic.  The mental gymnastics and distortions or bizzare…The ellacious disaster that, supposedly, god creates and then they say god saved us…he damn near killed ya never enters their mind.

          And as ex military…I never understood the god in every foxhole…tell that to the guys who just got wipedout…they were praying too.

          Jihadists, christians…it’s god’s will…they can always be the victim.  Democrats/liberals are like this too…it doesn’t matter socialism has failed, in all its myriad versions, everywhere across the planet and across all time…yet, they think they know best and government control is best.

          ARGGHHHH!!!

        • George

          One scientist explained the subatomic particles ‘dissapearing and re-appearing ” as not a situation of matter going and coming out and in existence but rather changing their chemical composition and form. Just like when water evaporates and turns into steam or a liguid turns into a gas and appears to have dissapeared . Some scientists have also asserted that we do not know all of the atomic particles and our current chart is far incomplete and different chemical compositions may change in ways we have not yet discovered or come to understand and as a result the mysterious [ possible illusion ] of appearing and dissaperaing ] may be as foreign to us as a television set or radar unit would have been during the  Dark Ages . One scientist also suggested that we also do not have scientific instruments yet capable of measuring and detecting SOME kinds of phenomena and chemical properties and changes which we are yet to understand and discover. I have heard scientists discuss parrallel universes , dark matter , anti-matter, quarks , quantum-physics, black holes , super nova explosions , time-space continuum , and a mass multitude of other scientific subjects. The average Joe and Jane does not learn these things in their basic education school curriculum.     These are extremely interesting topics as long as those discussing such can keep things in a civil dialogue for the sake of educating ourselves for our human advancement.

      • George

        Hey Paresh , I couldn’t post under your comment two comments before regarding your argument with the Jesus freaks .  They always resort to reciting passages out of their 2,000 year old ancient book of superstition as if that proves anything.  They can’t use rational thinking, reason, logic, analytical inquiry, and just plain common freakin’ sense ——- oh no, —if the magical book of ancient times says so —then obviously to them it has just got to be true without question and anyone not agreeing with them and questioning what they have been brainwashed into believing has committed the most awful sin of BLASPHEMY.    Trying to engage in any form of rational dialogue with these religious fanatic zealots is like talking to brick wall  ————   oh wait , I take that back , ———  a brick wall would be more intelligent compared to them  ( my apologies for insulting brick walls ,    my bad !  ).  

    • George

      I like Stephen Hawking  but not even he puts the nail in the coffin on the discussion.   It’s still THEORY nevertheless.      None of them explains  how material matter comes from  immaterial nothingness and even though they did  describe what they believe to be the case it will still be theory just the same. We have yet to see a scientist go into a laboratory and use a model chamber of nothingness and produce matter from a true and confirmed void or vacuum of NOTHINGNESS .   It’s still conjecture and not a 100% confirmed hypothesis . I agree that there is NO possibility that some supernatural being brought all this into existence .  That is pure theological fantasy.

    • Keith

      I like Hawking but he has already backtracked on one of his theories after the rest of the physics community proved him wrong about information being lost in a black hole. Surely he is one of the best minds in this subject but even with that I am not convinced something can come from nothing.

      There is another theory that the matter that makes up our universe was at one time another universe that was sucked into a super massive black hole who’s gravity compressed it into a singularity which reached a critical point and then had a big bang but now inside this other black hole. I can reconcile myself with this because something existed before. Where did everything come from before??? Don’t know, don’t really care as I am comfortable with the possibility that it always was.

      I am not a whole hearted adherent to science, maybe to the scientific method not the science community which had been highjacked by politics. I take medicine developed by science and I like technology that depends on science but as far as blindly believing in all science……. Let’s just say I am skeptical which is why I like this site. 

      • George

        I also Keith have seen scientists “backtrack” on what was once accepted THEORIES and then change their positions. This is what I was trying to convey to Don when he was talking about Stephen Hawking.  Even if a well renown scientist makes a statement on something doesn’t make it  “engraved in stone” without question but that it in itself should be put under investigation and scrutiny. Likewise I am also SKEPTICAL —–and I’ll just leave it at that.    Thank you sir  !

      • Don L

        Hi Keith,

        Was unaware of any retraction…then again, like you, I really don’t actually care.  The scientific approach, at least, offers some physical reality/factuality to understanding.  Religion is air…nada…empty…the only unified theme is power for the clergy.

        I had often thought that this universe was the result of, the other side of, another universe’s black hole.  The problem, of course, is that a black hole is not an instantaneous event.  It continues…so on our side we would not see a BANG…but a bang with ongoing debris continuing to enter our side of the hole.

        Hey, I’m not loosing any sleep over any of this.  Again, as has been stated by others, I don’t know — either…but I don’t choose to live my life believing in a contrived god that is only a manifestation of the fear of the unknown.

        Oh, yes, politics and science.  I mentioned to Harold, a commenter here, that, especially the weather guys, have broken their trust with lay folk.  There had been the idea that scientists would die rather than betray scientific truth.   Then along came government funding…’nuff said.

      • Liz

        Speaking of blackholes, have you ever heard of the “Electric Universe” theory? (google “Thunderbolts of the Gods”, Wallace Thornhill).  Their theory is that there is no such thing as blackholes – everything in space is connected by plasma and electricity. I am not a physicist (major understatement!) but it seems like a very factually supported theory to me.  And its also interesting how the established scientists are so slow to pick up on it, more like vigorously attempting to ignore and marginalize it.  I guess they care more about preserving the laurels they are resting on than making actual scientific discoveries.

        • George

          I’ve heard of that Liz and I have often heard of scientists arguing with themselves on various THEORIES  ( including the black holes ).     There have been super nova explosions and so-called big-bang expansions going on since all the eternity of time in the past and will continue to go on.  I have heard scientists declare that they know for a fact by scientific evidence that  supports their premise on a scientific subject only to come back years later and admit that they were wrong and that NEW evidence has shown otherwise——–and that’s why I am NOT impressed when someone uses his/her scientist credentials as if it’s a badge of authenticity or a  cocky  “know it all ” mindset which a few have exhibited.

        • Keith

          Liz, thank you for directing me to the “electric universe” theory. From what I have read so far I can see I will be reading for quite some time.

          What you and George have both said about mainstream science about preserving the status quo is true. Once a theory gets established those who came up with the theory will defending it until the evidence against it is overwhelming. Even then they will say “who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes”.

          Then it gets down to who one “believes”. I am not one who is big on believing without something to back that belief up, if I was I wouldn’t be here.

          Again, thank you.

  • George

    Religion has always been at war with and opposed science.  They are NOT compatible.  Even Robert G. Ingersoll stated such in his many speeches. I read a statement by Madalyn M. O’Hair over 20 years ago where she said that —  ” Agnostics  are nothng but gutless atheists “.       While some agnostics argue that we can not know if there is or isn’t a god ,  ( that statement is true of course ) , however the fact still reamains  as Ingersoll pointed out , that the claim that some invisible, formless, non-material ghost like being that cannot be described , defined or proven exists and created everything in existence from a void or vacuum of empty space (nothingness )  is indeed an impossibility.    The burden of proof is still upon the person making the claim and not vice-versa.    Therefore it is the Christian and other like-minded religionists who believe we came from nothing ( not atheists ).  It is the Christians and other like-minded religionists who believe in NOTHING ( not atheists ) because the Christians and other like-minded people  worship, praise and believe in something that doesn’t even exist.  Their beliefs are based upon a supposition or a “what if ? ” premise–not provable facts . The wonderful thing about science is that it is testable. Even if someone were to prove to me that there is some supernatural entity out there in outer space called GOD , I still wouldn’t worship or praise such a being .   Such a being is obviously responsible for all the horrible natural disasters that have killed untold massive numbers of men , women, children and babies who did absolutely nothing to deserve such horriofic deaths.  This horrific deity  (GOD) obviously by controlling the forces of nature has caused obviously hurricanes, earthquakes, famines, plagues, drought, miscarriages, tsunamis, tornados, blizzards, lightning deaths, and a multitude of other horrors   which are clearly regarded as ACTS OF GOD.   If a terrorist killed massive numbers of people ,we certainly would want such a terrorist to pay the price of committing murder, but when this so-called supernatural being (aka–GOD ) kills , we have stupid fool fundamentalist nut-cases shouting PRAISE THE LORD   or GOD IS GOOD ALL THE  TIME.    They do NOT think but only blindly believe as a result of a lifetime of indoctrination called FAITH.  As has been stated before –you cannot be rational with the irrational.   Here we are living in the era of the Space Age      and yet we still have supposedly intelligent and educated people still believing in organized superstition and mythology.  It’s mind boggling and pathetic !

    • Keith

      Science is testable…. to an extent. I don’t believe in the big bang theory for the same reason I don’t believe in a god, can’t get something from nothing. There are many in the scientific community who “believe” that the big bang theory is fact. It is just a theory that has basis in observational data but it is not testable.

      That being said nothing about religion is testable and all of its arguments are circular, i.e. “If god is all powerful why does he allow such and such to happen? because he is god and he has his reasons!”

      With logic like that it is amazing there are any atheists at all.

      • George

        I agree with you Keith and I don’t believe in the Big Bang Theory either and I got into a heated argument at an atheist group meeting on the subject ( so you’re preaching to the choir here —no pun intended )   and you’re actually saying the very same thing that I have been saying for decades.  It’s called BIG BANG THEORY for a reason and that is because it’s still a THEORY ( not yet proven to be factual ).  As I have also stated before —just because we are atheists doesn’t mean that we all are monolithic . I personally have friends who are  Christians , Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Wiccans , Hindus, Buddhists, etc . and although I DO NOT embrace their beliefs , they personally are good and respectful to me and I in turn am personally good and respectful to them.   By the same token , I have met quite a number of atheists who are flaming a**holes !

        • Yes, I think because we are skeptics, we must also be skeptical of theories without serious proof, such as the big bang.  I am ok with saying “we just don’t know” right now.  If some scientist eventually figures it out, great, then we’ll have a definite answer.

          The thing that drives me crazy is how idiot theists use this as a validation that their assumptions about god are correct!  Just because you can’t prove one/any of the scientific theories on the origin of life does not mean that Jesus did it!!!

          I got into a discussion/argument with the folks over at Townhall.com on one of their discussion boards.  It was CRAZY to see how all the Jesus-freaks jumped all over me.  Many times they would quote the bible to refute my arguments!  I just had to leave the discussion after a while.  Arguing with theists is just pointless.  They are so CONVINCED of their position that they don’t have the ability to see reason.

          It is SO FRUSTRATING that these Jesus-freaks dominate the conservative element. Thank “god” for sites like this. 🙂

        • Harold

          Don’t forget we talk about the theory of gravity.  We don’t fully understand it, but we certainly know it is there.  The word “theory” is often used to mean what is more correctly called “hypothesis”. 

          A theory is ” A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or
          phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted
          and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.”

          A hypothesis is: “A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem
          that can be tested by further investigation.”

          Thus there never was a “flat Earth theory”, but a “flat Earth hypothesis”.

    • Ralph

      If there were a god that allowed or caused the horrors you mentioned it is guilty of crimes against humanity.