The everlasting universe 19

So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a

creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no

boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed… it would

simply be. What place, then, for a creator?

– Stephen Hawking

Posted under Miscellaneous, Religion general, Science by Jillian Becker on Friday, January 15, 2010

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This post has 19 comments.

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  • Gossman75

    Evolution is a relatively new subject in the world compared to the wisdom of the Bible lasting for thousands of years. I’m not saying Christians are always right. But as far as debunking anything, what’s your take on the universe? Is it any better for a theory or are there problems with that theory too? Do you suppose the universe had a big bang that ignores that there is a great sea of space beyond. Do you really believe that every specie of animals evolved from the sea or dust to have a female mate right along side it for the purpose of reproducing? Do you suppose millions of dinosaurs and animals have been dying on this earth for 20 million years to leave only a limited pile of fossils. What do you believe. We should evaluate the statistics for ourselves with an opened mind, and study the truth even if it meant that there are many to oppose the theory. As with most people we are not confined to studying only a certain subject. We like to look at things for what they are so that we can live by our ways of understanding. God wouldn’t be Omniscience if he didn’t know anything about science. 

  • Gossman75

    The notion of every type of animal evolving with a mate right there by its side is really kind of wrong and could not be done unless with an Intelligent designer. There must be a mate for every kind of animal to reproduce and prolong the specie. And also if what you say is true about evolution, how many times would the evolutionary processes have to start over for the 20 million year journey to create man once again, if disasters are coming to destroy it all more frequently. I also might add that God did not create everything that exist, but everything that could be made. In other words the Omnipresent God did not create the omnipresent God, he always was. 

    • Liz

      You should do a more in- depth, objective study of evolution.  I know religion conditions you to ignore and marginalize it (as it does with anything that contradicts its teachings), but the scientific proof confirming evolution that has been accumulating over the last century is overwhelming, and there is not one scrap of evidence that has been found which contradicts it. 
      The “proof” for intelligent design, on the other hand, has already been debunked. (Although you won’t hear about that from those who promote it.)
      “Nothing is more sacred than the facts”, as Sam Harris says.
      The only way to know for sure about it is to study it for yourself.  If what you believe turns out to be true, then the facts won’t contradict it – they will confirm it!  If what you believe doesn’t hold up to the facts, then it wasn’t worth believing in, anyway, because it wasn’t true to begin with.

  • Gossman75

    God is also not only omnipresent, but he also had a body (Jesus). The eternal Jesus didn’t just float out there in the nothingness or the 3rd heaven where God dwells. There was stuff out there for him to exist with, that had to of existed along with him for eternity.  And I’d personally say God is Omnipotent because who of us can create the worlds that extends as far as telescopes can see, meaning the 2nd heaven? See for yourself what makes the most sense.  3rd heaven goes on forever, and was just there. However Jesus made the worlds plural in the 2nd Heaven.

    • Liz

      You are disproving your own theory.  If something is “just there”, without having to be created, that is evidence that everything else can just be “there” without the need to be created. 
      If you look at the scientific evidence, everything  evolved from a simpler form to more complex forms, over the vast time span of billions of years.  If God existed, he could have created everything in 6 days, like he claims to have done. 
      If you accept the clear evidence of evolution, it proves that either he is lying, and it actually took him ALOT longer, ( billions of years longer! ), or that someone else ( like our ancient ancestors) made the whole thing up, including the idea that God exists.  If you’ll notice, all ancient “holy” books reflect only the primitive level of understanding of the universe that the people of those centuries had. 
      If these books actually contained the words of God, don’t you think they would reflect a more accurate understanding of the universe than what our primitive ancestors had?      

  • Gossman75

    Don’t you believe the universe was always here? Like the law of conservation of energy. Energy was neither created or destroyed. So it is with the universe. What was here before there was a Big Bang to create the Big Bang? Nothing? That energy of the Big Bang had to reside from somewhere. As in the case of the everlasting universe, what is the absence of colors? Isn’t it still a color called black. What is the absence of Time. A scene of blackness that lasts forever?  Try to picture nothing. You can’t do it, for there would still be Space, and Time. God created all that was made, not everything that exist. There are 3 Heavens in fact. One where the birds fly, another called the celestial environment, and then there is that 3rd heaven that wasn’t exactly made but did exist.

    • Liz

      If something can exist without being made, that means that there is something existing outside of God’s omnipotence – which means that God is not omnipotent.  God by definition is omnipotent, or he is not God.  Therefore, according to the universe you describe which includes a 3rd heaven that wasn’t made but did exist, God (as we “know” him, at least), cannot exist. 

  • Gossman75

    It is said God is everlasting and everywhere at all times. When he created the heavens and the Earth, that is concerning what is locally. As for the rest of the universe It was already here.
     

    • Liz

      Well so when did he create the rest of the universe, and before he created that what was there, nothing?  Except God had to be there, so there was something.  Unless God himself is nothing.   (Bingo!)
      Or unless what was already there was there before him,  which means it didn’t need him there to create it, so why did he need to create Earth?
      And what is a “local” heaven, anyway?  Does it only go out to so far, and then stop, and on the other side of that is some alternate universe or something?   Anyway have fun with that!

      • Gossman75

        Your missing the point. The universe is eternal and infinite, and so is God. For the lack of better terms, Energy was already here in the form of tangible energy (Like Matter) and non-tangible energy (Like Magnetic Fields). And the such having +’s and -‘s polarities of energy, this is the basis of how information is within the universe. The +’s and – ‘s is what we use for binary digits in computers. The omnipresent God is simply all of that information within the infinite universe. And God didn’t need to create everything, only just what’s here locally ( The Stars and planets here locally) The eternal God has always had a place to reside outside and within the local reagion right? To simply put it, God is like a computer programmer of tangible images. When he said let man be made in his image. He was talking tangible computer images! That’s why the omnipresent God made Jesus in the flesh the mediator. To be a mediator with mankind for his own purposes. Besides, you cannot have just nothing in the universe. For you wouldn’t even be able to picture nothing. There are no boundaries to space either. Figure it up. It will make sense.

        • liz

          I never said there were boundaries to space – that would be a physical impossibility.
          What you describe sounds a little like Pantheism- that God is everything that exists- mixed with some version of Christianity.
          But again, if energy and matter already exist, without being created, then there is no need for a “God” to create anything. The materials for the formation of life are already there.

          • gossman75

            I would say the theory I propose is better. What did you believe? That the first single cell organisms came out of RNA arrangements and caused life to start. If that be the case we’re really not going to last long for we would assume that as soon as the lights came on that they could go out 50/50 chance. For in life there is also death. If this is true, then you would think that millions of years of evolution would simply not be plausible because in one day life could destroy itself by the same probabilities. Just think how often a meteor could strike the planet or in fact a black hole would swing by the planet, and yet you assume that we were just lucky enough to exist for some 20 million years of evolutionary growth. Believe me the God your debunking has foretold that when you see Israel form as a nation once again after its destruction some 2000 years ago, those people that sees the nation form will not die completely off when they should see God come in the flesh for the second coming. Well Israel is once again a nation 1948 and they came to Jerusalem in 1967. I know you don’t much care about prophecy but how did God know that Israel would form after it has been gone for 2000 years. Obviously there is more at stake than this new theory of evolution.

            • liz

              Well, apparently all life did nearly go extinct at least once, like when the dinosaurs died out.
              In fact millions of species have gone extinct over the milleniums, even with natural selection occurring to give them advantages in survival.
              It actually makes more sense, in light of the millions of years of evolution and extinctions, to assume that there are only natural processes going on, rather than supernatural ones.
              If there were a supernatural, omnipotent God, why wouldn’t he have just created everything at once, like the Bible says, or intervened to prevent all the extinction causing disasters and diseases that have plagued the earth in every age?
              It’s interesting to note, whenever there’s a natural disaster, such as hurricanes, floods or tornados, how so many survivors give credit to God for sparing them. Yet for every survivor, there are usually many more who die. Yet we don’t give God the “credit” he rightfully deserves for killing them!

            • gossman75

              I guess what is going on here is being misunderstood. And what I mean by that is Jesus could fly down and touch the earth with his feet in front of you and then take off back to heaven and people would look at this in two diverse ways. One way to see it is that What happened was that Jesus came down. Another way people look at this is that you’ve just had an epiphany or something and what happened didn’t really happen at all. Same thing going on in the study of life. What appears as supernatural wasn’t for some, whereas others tend to believe that there’s an incredible balance of nature going on. There are two sides to the fence everywhere we analyze, but obviously on one side of the fence the grass is greener. What I’m saying here is that when we look at DNA, some people say its millions of years of struggle to build it, whereas others say it was a God that took the time to build it. The notion that millions of years of struggle only made us better DNA wise could very well go the other way especially within 20 million years. For someone to think that 20 million years can fly by of adding Good DNA instead of Bad DNA. It is therefore kind of a strange occurrence, without the DNA being destroyed sometime within the 20 million years. Who made us better?

            • liz

              Well, I would say it was natural selection that made any species “better”, as in better able to survive.
              The long history of life on earth is a history of survival. The only alternative to surviving is extinction – non existence, in which case we wouldn’t be here to ponder our existence!
              So with a 50-50 chance, we got the lucky 50, not necessarily a strange occurrence.

            • gossman75

              How often would nature roll the dice to see whether the species would survive the day or not? All it takes is one failure to be taken out by nature and then you would assume that nature would have to start it’s evolutionary growth all over again for another 20 million years or so. But as far as why the death and destruction, that would be your best argument. For why would God create Hell. Well not everyone believes what I believe, but could it be that Hell was literately created by God as a way to motivate mankind, much like when joining the army they don’t give you a cookie and a soda and say relax a bit, but instead they give you mental and physical pain when training to make you better and more adequate for the battle. For the lack of better terms Hell grows wings on your back, not just hair on the chest. 99 percent of the time people misunderstood the real reason for hell. Do you think people like the rich man when he had lifted up his eyes in torment would be able to carry on a conversation to Abraham afar off if indeed he was burning with the fire we tend to think of. Not only is Hell a spiritual fire or spiritual darkness, but we will also have a certain type of spiritual body that is more able to tend to the situation. But that’s not to say you would want to go there either, for it is like a punishment.

            • liz

              Well here’s the thing – how do you know all this stuff about hell? Have you, or anyone you know, ever been there?
              In fact not only has no-one ever been to hell, they’ve never been to heaven, or experienced anything “supernatural”. (Alot of people THINK they have, through visions, dreams, voices, etc., but they can’t prove that’s anything other than the product of a very active imagination.)
              The Bible also cannot be proven to be anything more than legends and stories passed down through the centuries, mixed in with some tribal history.
              All the concepts we have inherited from the Bible and other holy books, such as God, heaven, hell, etc., were formulated in ancient times, by primitive people who had no other way of explaining the universe. They did not yet have the benefit of the scientific method to help them make sense of the world.
              But now we do! And science has consistently disproved every one of the old superstitions about supernatural causes for things as it has advanced in the last few centuries.
              It’s just a matter of recognizing this obvious preponderance of evidence for the natural causes of the universe that are there if you choose to educate yourself about them.

            • gossman75

              For one Hades is this present day hell. And even though you call it an epiphany, yes I do recall being there in a fiery chamber when I’ve mocked God for creating hell. And yes I wrote tons about this in my own series of journals. I too was Atheist until months of tormenting came unto me. You have to realize that whether it’s Buddism, Muslim, Christian, or Evoluitionist, they are all beliefs that people hold and therefore are Religions. Obviously only one religion could be true. I know Christian Science whereas you know Evolutionary Science. As far as you proving anything with science, there are a lot more scientific resources to disprove Evolution but you haven’t heard yet. Remember this prophecy that the whole world will come against God in the final times. Prophecy still remains to become true for our day because of the blindness thereof. To the contrary we still have yet to explain how the ancients knew how to build such structures as the Pyramids and structures we couldn’t build today. So once again they evidently had more knowledge than we do today but teachers don’t teach it as so. Does this mean in the past evolution we were smarter instead of stupid. Evolution teaches the opposite.

            • liz

              I had a similar experience to yours when I got “saved”.
              I have since concluded that this was an emotional experience, inspired by a Christian upbringing and subconscious guilt for straying from it.
              I wanted to be a good person, and equated being good with being Christian.
              It took many years, but as I studied the Bible, history, and experienced more of life, I began to see how my beliefs did not line up with reality.
              I finally realized that the “supernatural” realm I had believed in simply does not exist.
              You say that evolution is a religion, because it is a belief that people hold. But people “believe” it because there is proof for it, unlike any of the religions. And not just a little proof, but an overwhelming amount of proof. There’s more proof for evolution than any other scientific fact, actually.
              I am confident that any “proof” that you could find against it, has probably already been debunked.
              But you won’t be able to accept that until you admit to the importance of facts and evidence as a basis for your beliefs, and are willing to go where the facts take you.