A perfect match 45

Andrew Klavan, whose political comment, often satirical, we sometimes quote with approval and appreciation, now turns us cold with his column at PJ Media.

He starts by quoting a news item from Christianity Today:

The brother of two of the 21 Coptic Christians slaughtered by ISIS beasts in Libya thanked the slavering Islamist murderers because the video of their damnable atrocity included the dying martyrs’ final words of Christian faith:

Speaking on a live prayer and worship programme on Christian channel SAT-7 ARABIC, Beshir Kamel said that he was proud of his brothers Bishoy Estafanos Kamel (25) and Samuel Estafanos Kamel (23) because they were “a badge of honour to Christianity”.

Harrowing scenes of the murders have been seen around the world. The last words of some of those killed were “Lord Jesus Christ”.

Beshir Kamel thanked ISIS for not editing out the men’s declaration of belief in Christ because he said this had strengthened his own faith. He added that the families of the ex-patriate workers are “congratulating one another” and not in despair: “We are proud to have this number of people from our village who have become martyrs,” he told the programme.

He said: “Since the Roman era, Christians have been martyred and have learned to handle everything that comes our way. This only makes us stronger in our faith because the Bible told us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us.”

And then he comments:

Last week, I remarked what good news it was for the victims of the ISIS murderers that Barack Obama says Islamist terror is not an existential threat. But of course that’s pure satire on my part. The real good news for the Coptics is the promise of Christ: “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Truly, Christianity and Islam are a perfect match for each other, two ideologies neatly complementary.

Christianity courts persecution. It preaches: “Resist not evil.” It insists on injustice: “Forgive your enemies.”

Islam commands persecution. It preaches: “Kill the infidel.” It prescribes the smiting, stoning, burning and enslaving of its enemies.   

Theirs is the mutual dependence of the masochist and the sadist: a strong relationship that will endure as long as they both shall live.

Posted under Arab States, Christianity, Egypt, Islam, jihad, Libya by Jillian Becker on Thursday, March 5, 2015

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This post has 45 comments.

  • Pingback: The Atheist Conservative: » The utter failure of Christianity()

  • Frank

    Jesus and Mo explain all religions


  • LilySmith

    Here’s what you’re missing. Islam began as a repudiation of Christianity. They say, “God has no Son.” When Jews and Christians refused to accept Mohammed as the final prophet, they became targets.

    Christians believe this time in history is the time God offers all mankind amnesty from the consequence of their sin and the righteousness necessary for eternal life. God is not judging at this time, but this time will end and God’s mercy will turn to wrath against those who persecuted his people.

    However, Islam is about ruling the world for Allah. They don’t stop at Jews and Christians. Pagans and atheists who don’t convert are targeted just as much. As we speak Hindus and Buddhists are fighting Islam in their own countries.

    So you can gloat about Christians dying for their faith, but let’s see what you atheists do when your head is on the chopping block. Will you die for atheism, or will you convert to Islam?

    These Christians stood their ground and had hope. Will you?

    • Die for atheism? Die for not believing in something? You seem to misunderstand what atheism is.

      “These Christians stood their ground and had hope”. Hope of what? Eternal life in heaven? They may have done, but what of it? Do you seriously believe in eternal life in heaven?

      And how do you know they “stood their ground”? How do you know if they were offered the alternative of conversion? There is nothing in the reports on the video to suggest that they were.

      What makes you think we are “missing” anything well known about the history of Islam? What do we say that suggests that we do?

      Please grasp this simple fact. We do not believe there is a God, or any gods. You have simple faith that “God is not judging at this time, but this time will end and God’s mercy will turn to wrath against those who persecuted his people”. We think that is nonsensical.

      If your god created everything, and is good, why did he create ebola? (To take just one horror.)

      Have you ever had the courage to question your religion, to doubt your faith? Why do you accept its doctrines as true? What do you need it for? Emotional comfort? Doesn’t your mind need satisfaction? Doubt is the means to enlightenment. But it takes intellectual courage. Try it?

      • LilySmith

        Atheists do have a belief. They believe no God exists. When confronted with convert to Islam or die, how will an atheist respond? I’m asking. Will you convert?

        The Coptic Christians referred to in the article did not convert to Islam and so they were beheaded. Coptic Christians have been facing this kind of persecution for their faith since the Arab conquest of Egypt in 642 AD.

        I believe you miss the point by the comment that Christianity and Islam are complementary. What makes you think atheists are safe from Islam’s insistence to convert or die?

        I already know you believe that no God or gods exist. Duh. The point is that doesn’t mean you’re not a target for Islam. You’re one of the bigger targets.

        The world as it exists today makes perfect sense to me in light of my faith. Christian teaching said it would be this way. That’s why the Coptic Christians you mocked in your story continued in their faith to the end of their lives.

        • An atheist is free to make any decision for himself that he chooses at any moment. It would not be hard for an atheist to “convert” to some religion or other if his life depended on it. But some atheist might decide that living in a place and time where such choices are forced upon him is not desirable anyway. There is no orthodoxy in atheism.

          We do not “believe no God exists” as a matter of faith. We just do not believe things exist whose existence has not been proved. If I personally was in a mood to live, and my only choice was to say I would adopt some irrational faith and obey its commandments, I would in no way be betraying a loyalty to an intellectual position by choosing to pretend to believe in the irrational faith.

          Whether or not I was in such a mood would depend on many things. I know there is no life but this one that we live on this earth. I know that when I die I cease to exist for ever. If I don’t want to go into oblivion at the time such a choice were put to me, I’d “convert”. I might also base my decision on the nature of the threatened execution. A bullet might not seem a bad way to go. But a threat of being burned to death in a cage would be a severe deterrent to obstinacy.

          Yours is another-worldly superstition, or mysticism. If you were to tell me you don’t mind giving up this life because you think there’ll be another better one for you if you do, I would judge you to be, in this respect at least, insane. I do not mock the Copts who had their throats slit by ISIS savages. I mock their religion. I mock all religions. I am baffled how any sane, educated, normally intelligent adult can believe in the supernatural at all – let alone believe in such absurdities as that the Angel Gabriel preached the Koran to an illiterate merchant in a cave; or that a skygod preached the 10 commandments to an ex-prince of Egypt on Mount Sinai; or that a religious fanatic in Galilee in the time of the Roman empire was the “creator God” born of a virgin.

          Why don’t you tell me why your God created ebola?

          • LilySmith

            The idea that you do not believe in things whose existence has not been proved is your choice. You have set that bar for yourself. No one set it for you. Therefore, it is absolutely by faith that you believe no God exists, because neither has such an existence been disproved. Saying you know there is no life beyond this one; saying you know when you die you cease to exist forever, is a matter of faith. You don’t know any of that for sure.

            Christians are willing to stand and die to oppose the ideology of Islam and you live in a civilization built by those who were willing to stand. With your atheist mindset, there will be nothing to stand in the way of Islamic domination of the world. You would capitulate to eek a few more years out of this life while leaving the next generation to contend with the brutality you weren’t willing to stand against. You may not like religion, but this is the world we live in. When you don’t understand the battle, you won’t know how to fight the battle.

            Christians believe this is a fallen, temporal world. Because of the sin of mankind, everyone will die. Can you imagine a world were the evil of mankind is without end? Ebola is just one more virus in a world full of virus’ that can kill us. We believe God, however, is in control. Christians seek to live and help others to do so, but if we die, we die.

            • Go back and read the “Sermon on the Mount”. Jesus Christ is reported as saying “Resist not evil”.(KJV). THAT is to let evil rip. THAT is to encourage it.

              What are you doing to resist the advance of Islam? You personally? We are publishing the horrible facts about Islam frequently and constantly. Have been doing so for years. I personally have written about it in books, booklets and articles. I have commissioned others to do the same. I have been in the Middle East, in war zones there and elsewhere to report what Islam and other terrorists are doing. I ran an Institute for the Study of Terrorism in Britain whose business it was to inform Parliament, the press, the general public, even the police and the military, about terrorists, their activities, their motives and so on. I DO resist evil. I even pursue it to do it whatever harm I can. Yes, I would take steps to save my life in most circumstances where it is threatened. So would most people. I have no thirst for martyrdom. I am a coward to the bone. That doesn’t mean I don’t or wouldn’t take risks to find out everything I can that is damaging to an enemy, and inform as many people as will listen to me about what I find out. My weapons are a notebook and a camera, but I have nothing against guns.

              Nobody ever has to prove that something does NOT exist. It’s impossible anyway. Those who assert that the THING exists must prove it. It is not a matter of faith that when I die I die. It is a matter of fact. Only that which lives can die; and only that which can die, lives. Life and death define each other. That is the meaning of the word “mortal”. You believe in an immortal “soul” without any evidence for its existence. Fine. Be superstitious. But why are you so anxious to ascribe faith to me, to us? To make you feel better about being irrational yourself?

              If you think Christians do not court martyrdom, you are ignorant of the history of Christianity. They certainly have done so, uncountable numbers of them.

              In addition, of course, Christianity was a terrible persecutor. I’m sure you have not been able avoid that knowledge, but perhaps you prefer simply to overlook it?

              What are you trying to do here? Persuade us to adopt views that we have heard many times before and long ago rejected? You cannot defend Christianity with reason because it is an unreasonable ideology.

              The evil of mankind IS without end. Human nature will continue to be what it is as long as human beings exist.

              You still haven’t told me why your good god created ebola.

            • LilySmith

              Someone left a link to this site on PJMedia in the comment section of this story. That’s what I’m doing here. May be you should tell them not to do that if you don’t want others coming to your site and questioning your view.

              I’ve read the Sermon on the Mount many times. Jesus teaches Christians not to resist an evil person, but to love our enemies. This is in our personal relationships with those living around us. We are also taught not to do evil, so no, it doesn’t let evil rip. Governments, not individuals, are responsible for law enforcement and going to war. Christianity isn’t a government. Instead we are taught as individuals to overcome evil with good. In that vein, we support the work of Christian friends living in Iraq serving the people there in any way needed. We also support those helping Christians in the ME who are under stress right now.

              It is a matter of belief, or faith, that when you die, you die. I know the atheist line, but if you use some logic and reasoning you would know your belief is not based on fact, so it is indeed a belief–it is faith.

              So with that I’ll leave your site. Don L seems pretty upset by my mere presence and doesn’t appear to be the type to carry on a civil conversation. The faith you have is not in “no gods.” The faith you have is the belief that your view is the correct view of things about which no one knows for sure.

            • Don L

              I do not think you an ‘evil’ person. I think you to be indoctrinated from early life and unable to break out to explore.

              I enjoy you being here…I do not enjoy you telling me what an atheist is when your source is a message you’ve been incuklcated with …grammar, eh.

              You haven’t a clue about atheists because you’ve been told things about us. You came to this site and accused and lectured from a perspective we absolutely reject.

              “The faith you have is not in “no gods.” The faith you have is the belief that your view is the correct view of things about which no one knows for sure.”

              You live your life according to I don’t know so you choose to believe in the god thingamabob. I live my life according to what’s in my self interest and I can guarantee you so do you! You just don’t admit it because you’ve been told to be selfless.

              I see you as a dishonest person and a product of a foul ideology. I believe in people acting freely and willingly in their own self interests…not a faith but a historic fact. What you claim as mankind evls are infact the execution of the dogma of religion which is the same as socuialism…failure and tragedy imposed on mankind.

              More than happy to discuss this when you give up TELLING me/US who or what we are. As I typed earlier…the history of ypur ‘faith’is well known. I know what you believe. You haven’t a clue about us…you’re to afraid to find out!

            • Don L

              Ms (being nice) LillySmith, I think you would find it to be our pleasue for you to return should you accept Q & A as opposed to accuse, assert and defend.

            • Don L

              Ms LillySmith,

              I was about to head off and continue with my NETFLIX free trial. But, I flashed on your comment that I didn’t want you here, on this site.

              To the contrary…I want you here. I would like very much to exchange thoughts with you. The very first thing I’d like to ask you to comment on is this:

              Almost all your posts here are inclusive of the idea of “my teaching”, “what we believe”, What we’ve been taught”…an external source of thought. Atheists, not those who claim, as I have stated, atheism as a result of socuialistic ideology, are not taught. Atheists disavow socialism. Atheists do not hold weekly pep rallies. Atheists come to atheism through independent free thought,

              Are you willing to discuss this idea? If so, not ebonic, nor racist…’mon back.

            • Don L

              Who is there in the wings to replace you. I know you are doing your best to get your experience and knowledge recorded

              I have neither the time, health or intellect to be the next, no where near next, Jillian Becker — bulwark for sanity for humans. You are to the topic of atheism the Ludwig von Mises and Frederich Hayek as one…

              I hope this Ms LilIliLiversnmitds keeps posting…I truly enjoy the product of your mind!

            • Don L

              Wow…you are a coolaid drinker. Keep it up…I truly admire Jillian’s replies to you. You a stooge for the irrational… she an incredible lucid, logical mind.

              Keep it up ms lillylipshnidshitts…this exchange is pure entertainment!

            • Don L

              You do know where the expression of “drink the cool aid” comes from…right? Jones Town? Well, you’re right there…you got the faith to die for jesus saves. LOL

              What you cannot grasp…you’ve been told what we are…you do not know what we are. You’ve been told how to respond to anything we say.

              From time immemorial, there has been a law. Just like “you never fall up a building” law. Just like the law “You never think about things you don’t tnink about” law. They are truths above and beyond…irrefutable. This law is Jillian’s Law: “Any idea that requires a law to protect it from criticism is ipso facto a bad idea.”

              For you it means, every edict from your faith leader against listening to us is that law which ipso facto means that the faith they seek to protect is false. “Protect god’s word from the all powerful devil”…LOL.
              It is truly scary that you can’t see the parallel to the ISIS folk…they are doing the same thing.

              The patriarch of the Duck Dynasty was on Hannity issuing the same instructions as ISIS…Cionvert [to christianity] or die. You christian filth are only a degree or so separate rom ISIS. Fauith befor e thought.

              You are an empty human…a full stooge for others.

            • liz

              “Every edict from your faith leader against listening to us is that law which ipso facto means that the faith they seek to protect is false.” Great point!
              Here’s an example confirming that point, one very such edict from the great “faith leader” of the 5th C. A.D., St. Augustine:
              “There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity…It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn.”

              Compare that to Euripides, 5th C. B.C. :

              “Blessed is he who learns to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to harm his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured.”

            • Don L

              WOW…(As I’m getting ready to type…I realize this may not come across correctly…in advance, I know you are brilliant) You never cease to amaze. Great stuff!!!

              (it’s raining cats ‘n dogs…want to spend the night?
              No…that’s alright…it’s not that bad.)

              (say, want s’more of these mashed potatos? If you don’t eat them, we’ll have to throw them out.)

            • liz

              Thanks! Same to you.
              Sadly I think our visiting commenter has a mind made completely impervious to reason or inquiry. The brainwashing is complete.

            • Don L

              I just posted, a nicey…a sincere idea for exchange…let’s see.

              But for tonight…I have to go back and watch more on my free NETFLIX trial! LOL.

              Later Liz.

            • Don L

              I left her another…Now off to NETFLIX

            • I love the Euripides quote, liz! Thanks a ton for that.

              And for the many excellent points you make.

            • liz

              “Jillians law” tops the list!

            • Frank

              I am late to this party but I loved the Euripides quote. Here’s two more you might also enjoy.

              Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
              Then he is not omnipotent.
              Is he able, but not willing?
              Then he is malevolent.
              Is he both able and willing?
              Then whence cometh evil?
              Is he neither able nor willing?
              Then why call him God?
              ~ (attributed to) Epicurus (341 BCE – 270 BCE)

              “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by Rulers as useful.”
              ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca (c. 4 BCE – 65 CE)

            • liz

              Those are great quotes! Thanks!

            • I also love these two quotes . Thank you, Frank!

          • Don L

            Beautifully said!!! She can only answer because god works in mysterious ways… LOL.

        • liz

          I’d also like to point out here that neither Ms. Becker or anyone else who comments here thinks that atheists are safe from Islam’s demand to “convert or die”. We realize that to a Muslim, all non-Muslims are targets. There are many previous articles you could read that cover that.
          Also no-one is “gloating” over the deaths of these Christians. We mourn their deaths as everyone who values life does. But the fact is that Christianity does not do Christians themselves any favors by teaching them to welcome martyrdom.

          • LilySmith

            Christians don’t “welcome” martyrdom. Everyone wants to live. But Christians do stand for their faith, and that in light of persecution and treats of death.

            • liz

              Who said anything about capitulating? They need to be fought to the death.
              The only time to capitulate is if you are already conquered and have no choice. And of course most Christians don’t welcome martyrdom because they have enough common sense and survival instinct remaining to ignore the teachings found in the Bible. It’s not because of their faith that they survive and prosper, but in spite of it. They learn to give it lip service, only.
              They are forced into this hypocrisy by the teachings, “love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you, turn the other cheek, deny yourself, hate your father and mother in comparison to your love for me (Jesus), give up everything you own and follow me, love not the things of this world, etc, etc…
              All these teachings are against nature, defeatist and destructive to mental health.

            • Don L

              I know you know…through you to ms Lillylipschitts:

              Don’t forget that everything the church seeks economically-pollitically is utterly absurdly impossible…it is the same as all socialism: You cannot in any way. manner or fashion ever legislate morality or equality. Ultimately both socialism and religion fail because they are the same…selflessness of the masses to the benfit of the rulers.

            • Don L

              Sure you do…you live for a better life in heaven.

        • Don L

          There IS a belief in god(s)…you call it faith. There is, however, no such thing as a faith in no god(s).

          Yes. atheists are also a target of ISIS…fact, not faith.

          Have you actually had someone put a knife to your throat or a gun to your head and demand you give up your religion? I suspect not. So, beatch…don’t even begin to proclaim what yopu or anyone of us might do when faced with this problem. I suspect you have never worn a uniform of this nation and gone off to war either…life for country is that idea.

          Bottom line…you’re exoposed as a bimbette christian spewing onward christian soldiers from the chaise lounge of make-belive. Figuratively, get some cajones and question. What hit me in your BS comments was the “Christian teaching” statement. Go find out that their is more. Find out why you have to be indoctrinated week after week. Atheists don’t.

          And, by the way…don’t confuse those who are democrats/socialists/progressives/leftists who ‘claim’ atheism. They are not…they are merely the puppets of their ideology…kinda like you are toward christianity. That’s probably over your faith-based head. The left is in competition with christanity…they seek the same audience: the mentally weak susceptible to emotional dribble.

          Dying for something that doesn’t exist…heaven is your 72 virgin moment…listen to your christian leaders and be nothing on earth and look to heaven for eternal joy…live for others…yada yada.

          Here’s a question: When you make a big purchase…do you consider it according to your interests or someone else’s? Rhetorical…your reply isn’t required.

    • Don L

      Independent thought is not your forte. Spew ignorance m’dear Ms Liliysmchitts…spew. LOL.

  • The origins of each religion explains the difference. Christianity was created by those out of power and with no hope of acquiring power. Their focus was on the next life and they accepted rule under the Roman Empire (see Romans 13, “render unto Caesar,” “my kingdom is not of this earth”). In the 4th century they adopted Roman power politics and a more muscular Christianity came into being.

    Islam was created my a warrior who conquered and ruled. Islam was not about conversion, but imperialism. They found the perfect conquests: Christians. After conquest, Christians readily regress to their early role as a subjugated people who look to the next life. With the important exception of Spain, Christians rarely rebelled. Even the Greeks had to be pushed by Western European Romantics.

    Islam and Christianity are a matched set. Islam is a master religion and Christianity (in its original form) is a slave religion.

    PS. I glad to stumbled across this article as I left a dissenting comment at PJM.

    • liz

      Good points. The differing character of each religion is also reflected in how each views the concept of “martyr”. To Christians it’s one who’s killed for their faith; to Muslims it’s one who kills others and dies in the process. One is passive, the other aggressive.

    • Thanks for your comment, Jason P. The essential points you make endorse and emphasize our case.

      I’m glad you left a dissenting comment at PJM. I thought of doing so, but decided to do the post instead.

      Master religion, slave religion. That’s a very good way of putting it.

  • Frank

    They both worship the same god – the god of Abraham.


      Will the people who are stagnating in these two religions ever pay as much attention to Reason and Logic in the ALL areas of their lives as they pay to their “God Invention?”

      I had a great teacher drive home the point to me to always remember that there is no such thing as personal security……anytime, anywhere…for anyone!

      I realized that this was one big eye-opener for me and also a main-stay for my conversion to Atheism.

    • Frank – that’s what they say, but there is no resemblance between Jehovah, the Trinity, and Allah.

      Except that Jehovah, the Trinity, and Allah are all horrible human inventions.

      • Frank

        They worship the same god. The only point of contention is whether or not he suffers from multiple personality disorder. Dawkins gave a good description that fits all of them.

        “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
        ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

        • Well, that could fit Allah too. But wouldn’t you say the Trinity is rather more milquestoast?

          • Frank

            Regarding the Trinity the crimes of the Father are well documented in the Old Testament. The Son had an irrational and vicious side.

            “Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.”
            (Matthew 10:34)

            “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
            (Luke 19:27)

            “There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matthew 19:12)

            And the so-called Holy Spirit quietly haunted the other two.

  • liz

    Yes, they do seem to feed each other’s dysfunctional mentalities. Only problem is, in this arrangement Christians will be going extinct pretty soon.


    Actions are much greater indicators than words. Now we will have Christians validating these Islamic monster’s horrendous murders by offering “Martyrdom” as a “Great Declaration of Pride” in their religion!

    Heinlein was right; “Most people can’t think, most of the remainder won’t think, the small fraction who do think mostly can’t do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count.”

    • Don L

      I Grok that. TANSTAAFL!